For PokerBob...

ggbman · #1 05-01-2006, 09:58 AM

The other day, you posted a hand where you checked behind the turn so you could raise the river, and i said i didn't like it. I just thought of that when i played this hand, so i thought it would cool to post. Generally, it's to do an example post without it looking results oriented, so i'm not going to worry about it.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Ac 9c (two pair, kings and nines).
UTG doesn't show.
Hero has Kc Jc (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB. 

I liked doing it in this situation because...

1.) I basically always have the best hand
2.) My opponent pretty much never has more than 5 outs, but he can sometimes be drawing dead or to three aces, as i would often get more action from a pair
3.) I will induce lots of river bluffs
4.) If he has a pair, he will bet and almost always call a raise

Here was one other situation where i made this play. In this particular case, the SB was Josh, which played into my thinking...

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Ac (two pair, kings and fours).
SB has Ah 2h (one pair, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB. 

On the flop, he is usually thin/dead. So, my check makes it look like i might be giving up in a blind battle, as my 3 betting range is pretty wide. Also, knowing that he is a solid player, if he has a hand like QJ and pairs on the river, he will bet, and it's so tough for him not to call a raise, whereas he might simply fold that hand to a continuation be on the turn. Also, i know that we will probably be playing together a decent amount in the near future, and this makes it much mor difficult for him to make thinner value bets on the river. (FWIW, we talked about his river bet, which neither of us like... but once i raise i don't think his 3 bet is bad if he has never seen me do this before)

mikeyKay · #2 05-01-2006, 10:27 AM

this is a play i dont think i've ever really used, but does show some merit. i really think it has to be against the correct opponent. i feel many times you are leaving value on the table that you dont make up later in the hand. people will pay off a turn bet looking to spike a pair, and not call a river bet or give you any excess action on the river. on the upside, you may also be able to get a free showdown here and there if an opponent is playing attention to you. against a classic bobo head, i would just keep it simple and keep firing.

-mike

krishan · #3 05-01-2006, 10:32 AM

These hands are unbelievable. I use to do this more and stopped. I'm going to keep an eye out for these spots.

Krishan

Nate tha\\\' Great · #4 05-01-2006, 11:46 AM

The thing is the dude that paid off like that with the A9 hand might well have check-raised the turn.

Josh. · #5 05-01-2006, 01:54 PM

hand 1 is brutal

gaming_mouse · #6 05-01-2006, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but once i raise i don't think his 3 bet is bad if he has never seen me do this before)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this, cause I really don't like the 3b. What is your range after you raise the river? What is Josh hoping to accomplish with that 3b?

Josh. · #7 05-01-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but once i raise i don't think his 3 bet is bad if he has never seen me do this before)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this, cause I really don't like the 3b. What is your range after you raise the river? What is Josh hoping to accomplish with that 3b?

[/ QUOTE ]

he confused me but i played it like an idiot. this hand took place at 6am and i was not paying that much attention. i don't know. i'm really impulsive and do a lot of things i regret instnatly. my immediate gut reaction was he had Ax but i really don't know why i did that. whole bunch of excuses. i'm pretty embarrassed of this really. i should have flat called which means gabe should have not profited off doing that. i'm not peeling that lightly on a K44 flop so he should expect to get action on the turn. i think both of these turn checks are pretty bad

ggbman · #8 05-01-2006, 02:11 PM

Hand 1 is perfect Josh. Yes Nate, he might c/r the turn if i bet, but obviously, if he check raises the turn, calls a 3 bet, and then calls the river UI (so 3 *ifs*) he still puts in the same number of bets. However, the real key is when he T8s or whatever crap he's peeling with and feel he can bluff the river, or when he pairs QJ and then bet/calls the river. I listed the conditions that were present that lead me to that turn check, and in retrospect i still definitly like it. Remember, assume the general range of hands that the BB doesn't 3 bet preflop and just c/c's a K83r flop with. I have him drawing dead a ton here.

As for hand 2, if I know Josh has an Ace, i just bet the turn. However, i expect him to peel that flop with pretty literally any two cards he raised with getting 7-1. So, my turn check is based on what i thought his general range of hands was. I think some of you guys see the results and say, "Oh you could have made as much playing the hand X way", but in reality against the general hand ranges, the checks ended up being pretty good.

PokerBob · #9 05-01-2006, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but once i raise i don't think his 3 bet is bad if he has never seen me do this before)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this, cause I really don't like the 3b. What is your range after you raise the river? What is Josh hoping to accomplish with that 3b?

[/ QUOTE ]

he confused me but i played it like an idiot. this hand took place at 6am and i was not paying that much attention. i don't know. i'm really impulsive and do a lot of things i regret instnatly. my immediate gut reaction was he had Ax but i really don't know why i did that. whole bunch of excuses. i'm pretty embarrassed of this really. i should have flat called which means gabe should have not profited off doing that. i'm not peeling that lightly on a K44 flop so he should expect to get action on the turn. i think both of these turn checks are pretty bad

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't hate your line Josh (which may be a bad sign [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])....when gabe checks the turn, he likely expects you to bet the river and he's gotta know you know that, so your 3bet is terrifying....unless of course he has a pair.

Josh. · #10 05-01-2006, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but once i raise i don't think his 3 bet is bad if he has never seen me do this before)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this, cause I really don't like the 3b. What is your range after you raise the river? What is Josh hoping to accomplish with that 3b?

[/ QUOTE ]

he confused me but i played it like an idiot. this hand took place at 6am and i was not paying that much attention. i don't know. i'm really impulsive and do a lot of things i regret instnatly. my immediate gut reaction was he had Ax but i really don't know why i did that. whole bunch of excuses. i'm pretty embarrassed of this really. i should have flat called which means gabe should have not profited off doing that. i'm not peeling that lightly on a K44 flop so he should expect to get action on the turn. i think both of these turn checks are pretty bad

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't hate your line Josh (which may be a bad sign [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])....when gabe checks the turn, he likely expects you to bet the river and he's gotta know you know that, so your 3bet is terrifying....unless of course he has a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm pretty embarrassed of this really

[/ QUOTE ]

i shouldn't have even bet the river to begin with