T9s flop 2nd pair

[Low Limit Loser]

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Well I bet the turn because I saw his FLOP call as a sign of weakness.

I'll admit the turn call was simply a lapse in thought.

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FYP, I think.

With your turn bet, are you trying to get him to call with a worse hand or fold a better hand? If it's the latter then you're making a mistake, and if it's the former then you're making a mistake. Against this type of player, checking the turn and calling a river bet is often superior.

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Aaron, I disagree. I think betting the turn and checking behind the river is the better play.

1. "Am I trying" to get him to call with a worse hand?" ----If it happens great.

2. "Am I trying to get him to fold a better hand" ------- If he folds a better 9 that is great.

What I really expect here is for him to call with a worse hand or fold a worse hand that has some outs. I want to put one more bet into this pot and I'd rather do it now than on the River. If I am good now, I don't want to give a free card. If I am not good, and villain calls, he cannot really like his hand much and I should get a free show down. The turn check, river call is something to do with a less vulnerable hand.

The key is being able to fold to a raise on the turn with this non drawing board

[Nick Royale]

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Well I bet the turn because I saw his FLOP call as a sign of weakness.

I'll admit the turn call was simply a lapse in thought.

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FYP, I think.

With your turn bet, are you trying to get him to call with a worse hand or fold a better hand? If it's the latter then you're making a mistake, and if it's the former then you're making a mistake. Against this type of player, checking the turn and calling a river bet is often superior.

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Against what kind of player? I can see no read and if I have no read I bet it for a free sd. When I raise the flop I have to believe he's capable of betting worse 9s, bottom pairs or gut-shots, thus I think we need to give him a chance to fold. If he's agressive making us incapable of folding to a turn check/raise (or making a fold to a check/raise risky) and we're likely to get him to bluff on the river I like checking the turn and calling the river.

But without a read I'm folding the flop. He'll be holding a K or a better 9 way more often than he'll hold bottom pair or a worse nine. Note that there's barely any draws he can be betting on this flop.


EDIT:
So I see now villain is a stabber. Then I like the flop raise. I also think a turn check is fine, but checking the turn isn't necessairly correct only by having a read on him as a flop stabber. Most flop stabbers are capable of slowing down when you play back at them. Without a better read I think bet/folding the turn is best, but if you've seen him doing crazy stuff on the bigger streets as well or also like stabbing at rivers in retarded spots after shown weakness, checking the turn is best.

[Aaron W.]

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Well I bet the turn because I saw his FLOP call as a sign of weakness.

I'll admit the turn call was simply a lapse in thought.

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FYP, I think.

With your turn bet, are you trying to get him to call with a worse hand or fold a better hand? If it's the latter then you're making a mistake, and if it's the former then you're making a mistake. Against this type of player, checking the turn and calling a river bet is often superior.

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Aaron, I disagree. I think betting the turn and checking behind the river is the better play.

1. "Am I trying" to get him to call with a worse hand?" ----If it happens great.

2. "Am I trying to get him to fold a better hand" ------- If he folds a better 9 that is great.

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If those things actually happen, then it is great. However, I doubt the likelihood of it happening. The read of villain is that he's stabbing at flops. This means that he's often betting a weak hand. Many players like this will bet-call/check-fold their junky hands. The difficulty here is that there aren't many hands worse than hero's that can be calling the turn bet.

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What I really expect here is for him to call with a worse hand or fold a worse hand that has some outs. I want to put one more bet into this pot and I'd rather do it now than on the River. If I am good now, I don't want to give a free card. If I am not good, and villain calls, he cannot really like his hand much and I should get a free show down. The turn check, river call is something to do with a less vulnerable hand.

The key is being able to fold to a raise on the turn with this non drawing board

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There's nothing wrong with this line of thinking. But against more tight-aggressive players, the number of hands they will call on the turn with is smaller than the number of hands they will auto-bet the river with after you check. So even though you risk giving a free card and losing the hand, you'll snap off a lot of river bluffs and make up more than you lose there.

[Nick Royale]

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If those things actually happen, then it is great. However, I doubt the likelihood of it happening. The read of villain is that he's stabbing at flops. This means that he's often betting a weak hand. Many players like this will bet-call/check-fold their junky hands. The difficulty here is that there aren't many hands worse than hero's that can be calling the turn bet.

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I don't think we should assume he won't ever call with a worse 9 or a 2 on the turn, either hoping he's ahead or hoping to get lucky. It's 0.25/0.5, not 30/60.

Assuming he has ~4 outs on average the freecard we're giving him is worth about 0.4BB, thus the turn check will have to induce a bluff from a worse hand or a call from a hand that wouldn't otherwise have called the turn 40% of the time. This is neglecting the times we'll get check/raised and fold outs, so maybe we should adjust it to a 3rd of the time.

A 3rd of the time is pretty much and along with the fact that I think he'll call the turn with a worse hand much more often than you seem to think I like bet/folding the turn.

[bozlax]

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Sorry, I forgot to include prior knowledge of UTG. I'd seen him stab at flops in this fashion a few times prior and thought he may be BSing.

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I wasn't planning to respond to the hand as posted, but caught this as I was reading through. With this read, I think your flop raise is good, and I bet there's a heated debate raging below about your turn/river line...probably between Aaron and maybe Miles on one side (is Miles out of bed, yet?) and, uh, Buzz and some of the other sophomores on the other.

I'm going to add my weight to what I bet is Aaron's side:

Your read indicates that Vill may be a little tricky in which case you don't want to fold to a c/r on the turn, but you don't want to pay 3 more BB after the turn to show this down, either. Raise the flop, and:

* if he 3-bets, call and fold the turn UI;
* if he calls and bets the turn, fold UI;
* if he calls and checks the turn, check it through UI and call one on the river, regardless of whether you improve;
* doesn't really matter since we know you didn't improve, but if you improve on the turn you can go to war.

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Well I bet the turn because I saw his FLOP call as a sign of weakness.

I'll admit the turn call was simply a lapse in thought.

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FYP, I think.

With your turn bet, are you trying to get him to call with a worse hand or fold a better hand? If it's the latter then you're making a mistake, and if it's the former then you're making a mistake. Against this type of player, checking the turn and calling a river bet is often superior.

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Aaron, I disagree. I think betting the turn and checking behind the river is the better play.

1. "Am I trying" to get him to call with a worse hand?" ----If it happens great.

2. "Am I trying to get him to fold a better hand" ------- If he folds a better 9 that is great.

[/ QUOTE ]

If those things actually happen, then it is great. However, I doubt the likelihood of it happening. The read of villain is that he's stabbing at flops. This means that he's often betting a weak hand. Many players like this will bet-call/check-fold their junky hands. The difficulty here is that there aren't many hands worse than hero's that can be calling the turn bet.

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What I really expect here is for him to call with a worse hand or fold a worse hand that has some outs. I want to put one more bet into this pot and I'd rather do it now than on the River. If I am good now, I don't want to give a free card. If I am not good, and villain calls, he cannot really like his hand much and I should get a free show down. The turn check, river call is something to do with a less vulnerable hand.

The key is being able to fold to a raise on the turn with this non drawing board

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There's nothing wrong with this line of thinking. But against more tight-aggressive players, the number of hands they will call on the turn with is smaller than the number of hands they will auto-bet the river with after you check. So even though you risk giving a free card and losing the hand, you'll snap off a lot of river bluffs and make up more than you lose there.

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lol.