Hmmm ATs hand - Page 2

jaxUp · #11 04-26-2006, 04:30 AM

Brad, this hand is not real exciting given villain's stack. That said, I think you played it well. It is very interesting if villain has more dough. In that case, I assume you're taking a turn here everytime and I think your flop play is pretty standard. Once we get there, villain seems to want a SD, and I think a c/r becomes a spew. I c/c the turn and get pissed on the river when I miss and don't know what to do.

Shillx · #12 04-26-2006, 04:39 AM

I basically put the villian on a few different types of hands...

1) Jx in which I'm dead
2) A pocket where I have 8-14 outs
3) AK or AQ (where I'm a 60/40 favorite so keep that in mind)
4) Some dumb hand like KQ

I like the check/raise because my play looks exactly like Jx. He very well could fold an overpair to the check/raise. Even if he calls I have a good # of outs. If he is stacking off with Ax then I'm the favorite. If he has that with more $$$ I would expect him to fold but again I don't care if he calls. I'm toast against Jx but I can get away from my hand to a 3-bet (when he is deep) as I'm not drawing live against that kind of hand. There is also some chance that he has something like KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and will go with that hand when short. If he has Ax he is prob not folding and I don't care as I'm in a pusdo-freeroll against it.

Anyway the river was the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I roll my AT and it is good. He had QTo.

Brad

Edit - PF and the flop might be interesting. I will oftentimes just call from the BB and then check/raise the flop no matter what comes. I was actually going to auto check/raise the flop in this hand.

Str8Fish · #13 04-26-2006, 07:30 AM

I find myself doing the exact thing with someone short-stacked, but you gotta worry about a J, 2, or any other pocket pair here if he's got more money in front of him. If he had more money, I'd just call the turn bet.

MacGuyV · #14 04-26-2006, 09:41 AM

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Edit - PF and the flop might be interesting. I will oftentimes just call from the BB and then check/raise the flop no matter what comes. I was actually going to auto check/raise the flop in this hand.

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I used to do this as well but lately I've just been 3betting preflop I think with greater success. I would just find it difficult to checkraise a KQx flop in this hand, because all you're ahead of would be a worse Ace which you don't really want to fold.

Nick Royale · #15 04-26-2006, 10:01 AM

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I used to do this as well but lately I've just been 3betting preflop I think with greater success. I would just find it difficult to checkraise a KQx flop in this hand, because all you're ahead of would be a worse Ace which you don't really want to fold.

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But what you want to fold is JJ-55 and those hands will often fold on this board. If they won't we have 5-10 outs against them. So is the fact that some flops will look ugly a reason to 3-bet? I don't think so, but I also like 3-betting preflop better when I'm otherwise planning to take a stab on the flop. Mostly because it makes my postflop play easier, not having to evaluate how often he's ahead on tricky flops and putting that pressure on villain.

MacGuyV · #16 04-26-2006, 10:20 AM

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I used to do this as well but lately I've just been 3betting preflop I think with greater success. I would just find it difficult to checkraise a KQx flop in this hand, because all you're ahead of would be a worse Ace which you don't really want to fold.

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But what you want to fold is JJ-55 and those hands will often fold on this board. If they won't we have 5-10 outs against them. So is the fact that some flops will look ugly a reason to 3-bet? I don't think so, but I also like 3-betting preflop better when I'm otherwise planning to take a stab on the flop. Mostly because it makes my postflop play easier, not having to evaluate how often he's ahead on tricky flops and putting that pressure on villain.

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Yeah, if you're saying that there's no logical reason why 3betting preflop is better and I only do it because I'm more comfortable playing that way, then you're probably right.
I'm still don't know if auto-checkraising a flop like that is correct though. JJ-55 make up a very small portion of his range, no?

Nick Royale · #17 04-26-2006, 10:53 AM

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I'm still don't know if auto-checkraising a flop like that is correct though. JJ-55 make up a very small portion of his range, no?

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I thought some over this kind of situation where I've mucked pretty much without thinking. With ATs on a KQx board against a stealer we have at least 40% equity, probably more. Check/raising will often get us the pot on the turn when we bet if we're ahead. Not always a good thing because he might have few outs, but if he does fold on the turn we don't have to worry about getting bluffed since we can't call a bet on the river if we get called on the turn (and we're not ahead/succeeding to bluff, often enough to bet). Besides, if we're going to play this hand it must be for a check/raise on the flop because we need to get JJ-55 to fold.

So I agree, at first glance ATs looks like a fold on a KQx-flop, but JJ-55 is 42 combos and Ax/Axs/T9s etc is a whole lot of combos more we're ahead. Yes, we do not want these to fold since they don't odds to draw, but check/calling isn't an option and check/folding gives this inferior hand the pot. The only way we get the pot against these hands is check/raising, adding much value to that option.

We also have 4 outs to the nuts if we're indeed up against a K/Q and often at least 3 addional pair outs.

I'm not an expert when it comes to blind-steals, but I think in this situation check/raising is often good. I'm pretty sure I've been really bad evaluating flops in blind steal earlier. It's easy to think about all hands that beats us and not how many we beat/will have terribly hard to call if we raise.

However, auto check/raising ATs in the smaller games without a read probably isn't a good idea. We need to know he's capable of stealing and if he's loose enough to call down a check/raise with those PPs I've been talking about again check/raising the flop isn't a good idea.

EDIT:
I think against the average TAG on 5/10 this KQx-flop in a blind steal with ATs is a good check/raise.

The 40%+ equity I got from a sim with a reasonable steal range. Yes, this isn't the best way of evaluating a hand, but also consider that if we'll be able to fold many better hands (PPs) this equity rises by pretty much.