Simple JJ hand.

[RickyG]

Long time omaha player trying to learn holdem.
UTG is unknown, his first time around the table.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (6 handed) converter

UTG ($37.95)
MP ($49.70)
Hero ($89.20)
Button ($55.90)
SB ($18.65)
BB ($74.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1.50, UTG calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $6.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>

Standard??? Also, if he pushes, do I call?

[goofyballer]

This is a delicate situation because of his stack; if he pushes over the top of you, you're getting 3:1 on a call, and you probably would have to call that given that UTG is an unknown. That said, you don't necessarily want to have to put yourself in the situation where you're committed to calling his push.

The problem I personally have these types of hands is this: If he has a hand, then you're playing this hand for your stack when you're likely behind his range. If he doesn't have a hand, then raising scares him off his weak holding/bluff that he might keep betting at if you just called. If he has a draw, then you have to raise to kill his odds.

Here's a question for other posters: Let's say Villain has a draw. Is calling here really so bad since he's giving himself awful odds (2:1) to hit on the next card? If you take the draw possibility out and just treat this as a WA/WB situation, then calling down is superior to raising because you extract the most from hands you beat while still losing your stack to hands that beat you (which would have happened anyway if you raise). How does the chances of villain having a draw affect that?

[goofyballer]

bump, I want answers!

[BalugaWhale]

This hand looks fine as played. With stack sizes, you have to call if villain pushes (assuming the BB gets out of the way and doesn't CRAI or anything)

goofyballer-
I raise this for a few reasons.
1: there is good chance UTG has top pair/99/TT and he's just dying to overplay.
2: there is a very, very good chance villain is drawing, in which case I want to charge him.

If stack sizes are 100bb, and we make this raise and villain pushes... now I think we let the hand go without a read.

[AllIn3High]

If BB check/raises all-in I think you can find a fold.

If BB folds and UTG moves in, you should call because you'll be getting incredible good odds and you're usually ahead of his range.

This is a good flop for your hand, and I'm usually playing for my stack here vs. one unknown opponent.

Calling is certainly an option as well. As you pointed out, he's already paid to draw, and if he's bluffing (or betting a worse hand) just calling let's him continue to put in money with a worse hand w/o much risk for you. Whereas he might get away too easily if you raise now.

That said, you don't want UTG coming along here with a draw, since your hand is very vunerable.

I would like to point out that UTG potting the flop into you after you were a PFR and he just limp/called preflop is kindda scary looking...

A lot of incoherant rambling here... hope it's not too mixed up..

[Cormia]

This hand is curious for a variety of reasons. First, against most normal players, leading the flop is extremely rare, let alone potting it. If villian has a set/2-pair, they love slowplaying and wait until the turn, if not the river. Second, its really odd for villian to play a naked flush draw (maybe NFD) or OESD, since most villians turn passive and check-call. Second, potting flop and then coming over the top is exactly the line we advocate with a flopped set on a dangerous, draw-heavy board and occasionally, you do run into an actually good villian. We'll get great odds to call, but I have a very distinct suspicion that it will be a crying call and we'll be stacking off against a set.

The problem with calling is that while yes, he has *paid* to call, his aggro disguises his hand. What do you do if the many many draws hit and he keeps going? Your calling says you can be pushed off your hand. On this flop, there are very very few cards that aren't scare cards for us. If he is bluffing a flush draw, then arguably any overcards could pair him up. The middle to low cards could make straights or sets. If we let him continue the aggro, we have no idea what to do on the turn if his aggro continues, regardless of what comes. The other reason against calling is the BB. If BB is on a draw, they are getting wonderful odds to call, even possibly with just TP and on a board like this, the less villians, the better.