OK, so I'm wrong. Please explain.

arielnyc · #1 04-17-2006, 04:59 PM

I posted my thoughts on a hand, and just want more people to chime in, esecially the guys like Orange, Isura and 4 2 it and the other guys whose opinions I really respect. I am reposting from someone else, as the thread is now buried, and after getting answered, I dreamt about this hand, and decided...I need further clarification, because I don't see where my line was so incredibly wrong. To try to not taint responses, I'm only including up to the street where my line is different. After you see the hand, I say what I think, and why.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) (5 handed) link

UTG ($44.75)
Hero ($49.00)
Button ($21.08)
SB ($23.24)
BB ($61.39)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 folds, Hero raises to $1.00, Button calls $1.00, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4.00) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero........

OK, my stupid butt says pot it. Right here. Hero is Pre-flop raiser. No one re-raised, and the two people before Hero to act checked. I pretty much always bet the flop if no one else has when action is to me and I am PFR. Why is it wrong here? I think a weak ace folds. I have discovered, through 2+2 that these bets are a way to chase away ace smalls, like Ax suited and so on. Let's say you have 67 clubs, or Ace-7 spades or pocket 8s. All are quiet possible for calling and no re-raising and all would probably be best to fold to a potted flop, correct? Isn't playing this hand, like you had AK a good idea here? At least a reasonable one? If no one finds the thread, I can post what happened in the hand later (but have no clue what the results were, and don't care a whole lot).

Can it really be clearly -EV to just check check check. Is it impossible to be +EV to rock this flop with a pot bet? I dunno, guys, I want to really improve.

Dan Bitel · #2 04-17-2006, 05:03 PM

In my experience, a weak ace just simply does NOT fold. They will c/c or C/R. Betting isn't terrible here, but is proabably slightly -EV. Realise that the only hands better than yours that you are folding out are a queen (and vs some players not even then) and the chances are just so high that some1 does have an ace

beavens · #3 04-17-2006, 05:04 PM

i might bet 2/3 pot and be folding to any aggression.

TT in a multiway pot sucks, especially when we're most likely drawing to 2 outs.

95% i check behind and hope to either hit my T or at least pick up a free card for the straight draw.

DirtDog · #4 04-17-2006, 05:05 PM

You have not one, not two, but three callers before the flop. The probability that at least one of them hit the board in some way is huge.

At the 25 level, the main mistake players make is calling too much and going too far with hands, and bluffing against this many players is simply not likely to work.

Fishmonger · #5 04-17-2006, 05:05 PM

Don't c-bet a flop with high cards (particularly an ace) against 3 opponents. There's just way too many hands that will have hit and will call you. It is not going to work often enough to be profitable. It really is that simple.

Sorry that I'm not a respected poster, but this is really cut-and-dried stuff.

Arito · #6 04-17-2006, 05:06 PM

I didn't see the original thread but I can see an argument for both sides here. I almost always make a continuation bet, because people at these stakes call with any pair and almost any two face cards. The problem however, is that any two face cards either have a nice draw or a real hand. Th eonly thing you are forcing to fold here is a PP. Ax does not fold here in my experience (at these stakes).

[EDIT] Geez, these boards are fast, wasn't any response when I was typing. Well they all said it better than I did [/EDIT]

arielnyc · #7 04-17-2006, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry that I'm not a respected poster, but this is really cut-and-dried stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are respected, please trust that. I just am trying to improve and one way that I was even worse before was being too passive, and I really thought that the one bet on the flop would fold a weaker ace. I also thought that being PFR would be a factor.

So you would be more inclined to cbet with 2 others in the pot isntead of 3? Certainly headsup?

Arito · #8 04-17-2006, 05:10 PM

In general the fewer people in pot, the more inclined you should be to make a continuation bet (also excuse my un-respected-poster-ness [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Anything above 2 other players is a waste of your money in my opinion

K-mac · #9 04-17-2006, 05:11 PM

I am very new to NL, and I do not know which thread you speak of. However, I would like to give a shot at an explanation and hopefully the more knowledgeable players will chime in and correct me as well.

At first glance I think potting it on the flop seems standard. I think this is the play that I make in almost all cases. After giving it a bit of thought I think that checking it may be the best answer. My reasoning is as follows.

• We raised coming in from LP. Seeing that we are in the CO and we are open raising it may be viewed as a steal, an attempt at buying the button, or a decent hand.

• We are making a bet that may be seen as a continuation bet. I know that when I play and it is checked to someone in LP (open raiser or not) I tend to give them less credit for the hand they are representing.

Also, im not sure many weak aces are folding at the 25NL level. Based on my small leverl of experience, lots of players do not fold a weak ace here.

These are the only reasons that I could possibly come up with as to why this may not be a good spot to stick in a continuation bet.
Also, in the OP, were there any reads on any of the opponents?

Fishmonger · #10 04-17-2006, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sorry that I'm not a respected poster, but this is really cut-and-dried stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are respected, please trust that. I just am trying to improve and one way that I was even worse before was being too passive, and I really thought that the one bet on the flop would fold a weaker ace. I also thought that being PFR would be a factor.

So you would be more inclined to cbet with 2 others in the pot isntead of 3? Certainly headsup?

[/ QUOTE ]I always c-bet heads-up. 3-way most of the time, leaning towards not doing it if first to act on a board like this one. 4-way, essentially never, it just doesn't work