Tell me I'm losing my mind: $22 Speed BOTS

[taylor]

I think the Bots (we should capitalize them) will indeed shortly run over the game, eventually to the point where they're actively talking amongst themselves about the possibility of a real live human or 2 impeding on their table.

[Bigwig]

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I think the Bots (we should capitalize them) will indeed shortly run over the game, eventually to the point where they're actively talking amongst themselves about the possibility of a real live human or 2 impeding on their table.

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Heh.

[suzzer99]

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It certainly would help if Party were better able to spot them, obviously.

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I am sure when party starts to lose $ is when we how good thier security can be.

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I just spent 15 seconds trying to figure out why I couldn't remember making this post.

[Slim Pickens]

The bots have to be one of three things.

1) They are decoys for better bots. Good programers would never do such a terrible job of avoiding detection. Loosing a fleet of awful bots on the tables could convince Party that once the poorly-made bots are gone, so is the problem, and taylor their detection methods to a level of sophistication too low to catch the real ones. Whoever is running these things is making so many mistakes at once it's almost impossible for me to believe it's not on purpose.

2) Party is using the bots to prop tables. Why else would they be so close to break-even? If enough people pooled data on these things and found them very close to losing to the rake, in my mind that would be enough to prove they belonged to Party. After the software update, did anyone log on with less than 30k people already on?

3) Someone's just f-ing with Party, and indirectly all online poker players.

[davehwm]

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I've kept quiet about Poker Tracker and PAHUD in the entire time I've been posting here, but both are unethical and the sites should make every effort to have them banned.

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I am with you 100%.

[aujoz]

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The bots have to be one of three things.

1) They are decoys for better bots. Good programers would never do such a terrible job of avoiding detection. Loosing a fleet of awful bots on the tables could convince Party that once the poorly-made bots are gone, so is the problem, and taylor their detection methods to a level of sophistication too low to catch the real ones. Whoever is running these things is making so many mistakes at once it's almost impossible for me to believe it's not on purpose.

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While theoretically, this is possible, this is only circumstantial evidence at best. It would seem absurd to go to the effort of deliberately making a sub-standard bot.

Given a choice between deliberate evil and stupidity in explaining human activity, I'm betting on stupidity every time.

In addition, such a strategy would be massively counter-productive. After all, everyone who is aware of the current situation (including PP) are certainly going to be more conscious of the possibility after seeing this.

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2) Party is using the bots to prop tables. Why else would they be so close to break-even?

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This is also absurd. Party have no need to prop tables, and doing so would be such a stupid decision it would be truly extraordinary.

In addition, if they were to create bots on their own site, in contravention of their own terms and conditions, would be truly astounding for a publicly listed company. It is probably criminal, and would lead to such a massive PR investor disaster that the share price would crumble - leading to massive losses for the owners.

The more plausible explanation for "why are they so close to break even" is that the playing model is not that great - they allegedly have no capability to play post flop. In addition, a high ROI is not required if you can play 18 (?) tables (on different accounts) continuously 24/7. If you're doing 5% ROI on 22 speeds, you're doing 22 (buyin) * .05 (profit) * 40 (tables per day) * 18 (bots) = $792 profit per day before getting out of bed. That works out to be about $350k per year. That's not a bad result.

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If enough people pooled data on these things and found them very close to losing to the rake, in my mind that would be enough to prove they belonged to Party.

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I take it that your day job doesn't require much in the way of logic. Hate for you to be on my jury if I ever got charged with anything....

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After the software update, did anyone log on with less than 30k people already on?


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I log on every night with less than 30k people on. I play in the evening (Aust Eastern Standard Time, +10 GMT) and there's typically between 17k and 25k people online according to the lobby. Even at these times, there's no shortage of players with 22s filling up every 10 or so seconds.
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3) Someone's just f-ing with Party, and indirectly all online poker players.

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So, you're willing to concede the possibility that individual (or group of individuals) created bots to... shock.... make money playing online poker?

[tboss888]

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It certainly would help if Party were better able to spot them, obviously.

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I am sure when party starts to lose $ is when we how good thier security can be.

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I just spent 15 seconds trying to figure out why I couldn't remember making this post.

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How can party EVER lose money? As long as their # of players is higher than the cost of upkeep they make money, no matter if its bots all playing each other or humans.

[Vrange]

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It certainly would help if Party were better able to spot them, obviously.

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I am sure when party starts to lose $ is when we how good thier security can be.

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I just spent 15 seconds trying to figure out why I couldn't remember making this post.

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How can party EVER lose money? As long as their # of players is higher than the cost of upkeep they make money, no matter if its bots all playing each other or humans.

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They will lose a potential income if ppl start playing other places because party is flooded with bots.

[davehwm]

Here is an update for all of those interested:

I made my second phone call to Party Poker. I was redirected multiple times and each time asked to speak to their highest supervisor or mangager. Finally I reached someone who was familiar with the case, I won't mention a name as of yet.

He/she assured me that the first two e-mails I sent about the bots were responded to by someone in error. Apparently, this person was not aware of the current situation, and even though the told me to "rest assured" that there was "no foul play", they were in error. He/she was very apologetic that I received these two e-mails.

In fact, the players I mentioned (which was only 3 names at the time) were already under full investigation according to he/she. He/she requested that I allow another 24-48 hours for the investigations team to reach a final conclusion about the bots and to respond to my latest e-mail (which I will include below) that was sent at 10:00am this morning.

Take what you will from this.

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Party Poker,

Please forward this letter directly to a manager. I was told on the phone that asking that it be forwarded to a manager in the beginning of the e-mail would be better than sending it directly to a manager's e-mail address (they would not give me one).

I would like to express my great concern in how the "bot" situation was handled. In an e-mail correspondence that I will include below, you will see that I e-mailed the Party Poker Investigations team twice on the morning of April 10th about possible software usage to enhance play at the $22 Speed Tournaments. First, I was sent a form letter about cheating. After another e-mail, I was informed that a full investigation did take place. Mind you that this correspondence took less than 2 hours total, so I don't know how a full investigation could have occured. I was told to "rest assured" and that "there is no foul play in this case". I am sure that your current investigation has proven otherwise.

It was not until my third e-mail, with more names, that a member of the investigations team said they would launch an investigation. This of course is troubling considering I already was told a full investigation took place. I do understand that you get many e-mails a day about cheating, but if you can't take every e-mail seriously, then you will not catch the cheaters. I suspect that the full investigation was not launched until I went public with the information and provided more names. How many cheaters have to be exposed by your players before a full out investigation is launched? Not only that, but if in fact I did not start public threads on messageboards that have since been viewed over 12,000 times, that helped uncover a total of 18 bots, would a full investigation ever have occured?

This leads me to my next concern. There is evidence that these bots have been playing in the $22 Speeds for a month or more. They often play for 18+ hours straight and some of your top $22 players had noticed their betting patterns long before this but never conducted an investigation like I did. My concern is that had I not found these players, that they would have continued to evolve and gain an even bigger advantage over your loyal and honest players. It also raises great concern about bots that may be at higher SNG levels, MTT tournaments, NL and Limit cash games. Does the online poker community need to send out their own task force of bot hunters for their minds to rest at ease?

My requests are as follows:

- I would like to know what changes Party Poker is making to their routine investigations due to this rather large and disheartening event
- I have played close to 100 games with these supposed bots and I would like to receive the proper prize money for any game they were found to play in with bot tendencies
- I would like a detailed report of the investigation up to this point

I don't believe that these requests are ridiculous or outlandish. They are requests that any customer would make to a service that he uses daily. Please, in order to keep my business and the business of many others, make an honest attempt at fulfilling these requests or stating why they cannot be fulfilled.

I thank you for your time in advance.

Regards,
Dave P.

[Bishop22]

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Hell Im sure I look like a bot as I have check/fold/bet on my F1 keys.

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Dude...how do you set that up?!

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Check out the AHK scripts section. here