Controversy with Sheets?!?!

[NHFunkii]

wow that's some [censored]

[tubasteve]

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wow that's some [censored]

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I think I would actually cry at the table if this happened to me.

[UnderThe Gun]

The biggest problem here is the one seat's cards weren't visible to everyone at the table. Had his hand been out in front of him where the 7 seat could see it, this either would not have happened or Sheets would have simply made a mistake.

As it was, there was effectively no way Sheets could have protected himself here short of asking on every hand if the one seat still has cards.

[sheetsworld]

Ok wait a second....

Before everyone crucifies the dealer...a few people on that side of the table did say afterward that they hear her repeat "allin"...but I certainly did not...I may have not been listening carefully as mrs sheets says I always do, but no matter, I didnt hear it.

I went through my normal routine of scanning the table to insure that there were no chips over the line indicating a bet, before I even considered the action...

Then I shuffled and counted my chips, hollywooded it up and first said.."I raise"...(now it may have been NICE IF THE DEALER or anyone would have noticed that I obv could not raise someone hwo obv had me covered, but no matter...then like 30 seconds later...I stacked up all my chips and said ..."ok i'm allin".

BB folded and I went to rake my chip from the pot, and out of nowhere from behind the dealer sightline came the utg's cards and they were turned face up.

Never in a million years did I imagine that an allin bet or anybet for that matter could not involve at least some physical act of putting at elast a portion of the chips over the betting line . Why have th line anyway if this is the case?

Anyway, the rule sucks, the dealer certainly could have realized that I obviously didnt hear the guy based on my action and reminded me or reannounce that a person out of my sightline was allin. It also woud have been NICE is the floor people would have been so kind as to clarify rules like this before play began, ESPECIALLY on a day where many people would be allin fo quite a bit of money....It would have been nice if there were uniform rules through the wpt and all casinos covering situations like this...

But the fact reminas that the rule was the rule, and my ignorance of it was no excuse...and also, the poker gods spoke rather clearly on this matter, because the guy flopped like 5 Kings. So obv I was in the wrong.

Nonetheless,

KEJFHKSDJAFHKSJDFHKAJSDHFKJSDAHFKJSDHKFJSHADKFHSDA FDS

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

sheets

[ChipFish]

Perhaps a solution to this type of occurance would be that each player is given a small button (similar to a dealer button) that would indicate they are all-in?
This way, they toss in the "all-in" button as a bet, which seems like a simple solution to this type of problem.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps a solution to this type of occurance would be that each player is given a small button (similar to a dealer button) that would indicate they are all-in?
This way, they toss in the "all-in" button as a bet, which seems like a simple solution to this type of problem.

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I think a simpler solution would be to simply put your chips in the pot when you move allin. It's not super difficult to do this, even if you put in just one stack of them, itll be obvious that you are at least in the pot. You can't expect a player to ask to make sure no one has acted everytime its their turn to act, when there is no physical evidence as such.

Honestly it's just a terrible terrible rule. There needs to be something very physical to designate when someone is allin. You have to be very careful when you allow a verbal declaration to count for so much. I will give a quick example.....

It's just a small example but I was in the BB and the SB limped in. I announced raise and did nothing else. The dealer heard my announcement as "check" and then dealt the flop. I argued that I had said "raise" and not "check" and the dealer argued otherwise. 2 people at the table heard me while no one else heard anything. Obviously I didn't announce raise loudly enough, but eventually the raise was allowed to stand, after the floor came over and a 3 minute delay ensued. If I had just put chips in the pot along with my comment there could have been no dispute. My point is that if this was a simlar situation and I had said allin, it would have been very understandable for someone at the table not to hear it, considering that a moment occured where 70% of the table didn't hear me. If you combined this with the dealer not loudly proclaiming the allin and the complete lack of physical evidence, a player could easily make a mistake.

As long as you allow verbal announcements to be binding, it's possible for players to say that they were "misheard" and can create other difficult situations. A player could say "allin" and simply announce to the floor that they asked "anyone allin?". There are a number of circumstances that an angle shooter could attempt to abuse, and if only a small % of the table hears the person anyway, you have that many fewer witnesses to counteract the players' story.

I'm rambling on, but it's such a terrible thing to allow I can't even put it into words. Was sheets really paying so little attention to the action, that he didn't hear anything and he was to blame? It could be that he was far away and that even by listening with an keen ear, he wouldn't have heard anything. Everyone should just stop debating about it and be forced to put their chips in front of them, it's not complicated. I don't want to have to be paranoid everytime it's my turn to act that someone whispered allin earlier in the hand.

[runout_mick]

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I've seen too many situations where someone goes allin, and has their cards reasonably well protected, and somehow a dealer manages to sweep them away from the player thus eliminating them from the tournament.

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I think the dealers are getting too big a share of the responsibility. It's a player's game. The dealer is just there to expedite and standardize the physical manipulation of the cards. He is neither referee, or active participant, and players are solely responsible for their cards at all times.

With regards to sheets' situation, I feel like he was unfairly dealt with. Not by the dealer, but by the player. For the player to be "all-in" there should at least be a token representation of this in the middle.

I know that there are many times I have declared verbally "all-in" and haven't wanted to push my stacks of blacks and purples in because it would mess them. In these situations, I still throw out my stack of biggest denoms, and maybe a stack of purples, just so it's clear that there has been SOME action on my part.

I think the floor ruled unfairly, and if no token was put in the pot by the original raiser, Sheets should have been allowed to retract his bet. The ep's verbal all-in with no physical representation, IMO, amounts to little more than an angle shoot.


Tough one Sheets...

[LionelHutz00]

The dealer, UTG, the tournament director and sheets all get a kick in the nuts.

[Temp Hutter]

Ask Brad Berman about ths sometime. He knocked Doyle out of the WSOP a couple of years ago because he did not know that Doyle had moved all in. He said "call" not realizing that Doyle had moved all in over the top of another player because Doyle never touched his chips. Brad sucked out on Doyle and knocked him out.

[NHFunkii]

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The dealer, UTG, the tournament director and sheets all get a kick in the nuts.

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I think sheets learned his lesson enough...