5CD, under the gun and have a small straight before the draw

[jokerthief]

Normally the way I play this has been raise then bet. I am wondering if I have been playing this hand incorrectly. Would it be better instead to raise then check and call? My thinking is that people will only call or raise if they have me beat and might make a retarded bluff. If I bet and am raised I have to call (notice that I am playing the smallest stakes so this is why this is true) and can't justify a reraise.

Thoughts for this 5CD n00b?

[Tom Bayes]

Yeah, weak pat hands are problematic after the draw, particularly if your opponents are the kind that will call your raise with a drawing hand (and there are lots of these at the low limits).

I'm not sure if you are playing limit or pot-limit, but either way I will play my weak pat hands (straights and small flushes) very fast before the draw. Never give the blinds a cheap/free chance to outdraw you. If you want to get cute with a pat hand and try the limp/reraise move, wait until you have at least a strong flush or better a full house, where you are pretty sure there is virtually no danger in letting guys hit their draws.

What you do post-draw with weak pat hands will depend on your opponents. If they respect you and will only give you action if they have you beat, you might as well check it down. If a rock bets into you, you might even think about folding in a big-bet game (note that there aren't many players online that are tight enough for this to be correct against). If you think your opponents can be goaded into stupid bluffs, then give them the chance and snap them off. If your opponents think you are full of BS or are just oblivious, then you can make a value bet. I've had times where I've done the pat hand bluff with 2 small pair, bet out and gotten called, and have still won the hand! You have to be particularly careful about opening the betting after the draw in a PL game because you'll have an ulcer-inducing decision if you get potted.

[DOMIT]

I agree with Tom. It does depend sometimes. I've seen the more frequent players (ie, the ones I have notes on because they play everyday ; ), bet into me when I do the check-call vs 1-card or 2-card draws, thinking that I might have stood pat on a small two pair, now I'm checking because I'm beat (broken-wing routine [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

I will pretty much always bet into a 3-card draw though. It's 98-1 (according to Caro) for someone to fill to beat you starting with a lone pair. And, heck, I've been raised because someone made trips! LOL There have been the occasional beats, where they DID get the 98-1 or better (quads).. and I seem to recall the one time I got shown an AK-high flush (yes, called a raise to draw to AKs).

[stripsqueez]

i am constantly surprised at how many guys i play on-line who like to bluff when i stand pat - many more times than should happen i get bet into with non pat hands

i think your probably advocating lines that are too timid - they are very curious to see what you have and will commonly call a bet to beat a bluff - the guys who will raise a bet that you still have beat should be reasonably obvious

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[SoCalPat]

I would still bet into anyone drawing two or more here. Weak players just can't drop trips, and half the time they'll think you're bluffing anyway. Additionally, if you do check/call, win and show your straight, methinks you've killed off the chances of anyone ever bluffing into you again.

If you bet and are raised, call it down because you'd be surprised how often others don't pay attention to how many cards others are drawing (or in your case, not drawing).

If we've got a multi-player field and someone's drawing one, I'll probably check-call just to induce a bluff and (hopefully) overcalls.

Like Tom said, play your small straights fast before the draw, and I'll add to slow it down quickly in the face of resistance after the draw.

[mpanzer]

I've just played this hand and it shows, IMHO, why PL 5D is a Fold or Raise [pre-draw] game. This hand mimics the OP very well, IMO:
I was in the BB with Kwxyz - no draws at all.
UTG limps, Button limps, SB calls, I check.
SB draws 1 card, I drew 4 cards keeping the K.
UTG stands pat! He was either trying to get more callers pre-draw or with FPS, we'll see it soon. Button draws 1 card.

SB quickly bets the Pot, I raise the Pot - as long as now I have KKKAA, lucky me! - UTG calls, Button raises all his chips, everybody is all-in in a glimpse! And it is a ring game that just started, with everybody with more or less the buy-in.

The I-limped-and-stood-pat guy had a straight, 56789, Button had a flush, SB had a straight, 23456. They left the table and they say I was lucky, etc. But I guess if I did not get lucky the other guys would be all-in anyway.

Actually, I was lucky, obviously [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
But the point is not how lucky I was, the point is:
1. Had UTG raised 3-4 times the BB, I would have Folded without any doubt.
2. Button is usually very straightforward, I would say he would have Folded also with a non-nut flush-draw - remember this is a ring game.
3. SB, as long has he had some money into the Pot, and infering, correctly, my money would be dead money, could have Called.

In that case, UTG wins, the rest is history, am I correct?
His bad play led to the weird post-draw events. With or without me and my luck he would be the loser after all - just because he slow-played a straight.

Am I right?

P.S. Unfortunately it was just .10/.20 ...

[DOMIT]

IMO, UTG did the classic "missed played on all streets". Did not charge anyone for their draws, then, when, not one, but TWO people that drew 1 are willing the commit chips, he _should_ know that he's no good (and the SB should have mucked his str after seeing UTG pat, not even bothered to check, just fold.. no good). But then, we're talking micro-limits here. These guys really learned a cheap lesson, as I'm sure the max buy-in wasn't more than $25...?

Anyway, to answer your question: yes, he should have raised; he would have won. Even if button called, your folding changes the cards and he might not have made his flush.

[mpanzer]

Max buyin is €20, default buyin €10, min buyin €4. Almost everybody goes for the default because all you have to do is to click 'OK' in a dialog box.
And yes, the lesson is 'never let them draw cheaply'.
But at these limits everybody is fishy, including me, of course.