Bad laydown?

[Wes64]

I was playing 2-5 No Limit at Harrah's in New Orleans. I had been playing about 3 hours. The game was 5 locals who all seemed to know each other, 4 people who seemed to be from out of town, and me (from Dallas).

Immediately to my right is the tightest, quietest local. He was playing very few hands and was aggressive in those he played. The only hands he had shown down he won, and they had been big hands with one of the tourists calling his raises. He is our villian.

Hero is on the button with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Early position raises to $20. (That had been a fairly standard opening raise in this game and the $20 raises had been getting callers). All fold to villian who calls. Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls. $82 in the pot. I have approximately $440 after I call. The other 3 players all had between $330 and $450.

Flop comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. So I have top pair and a flush draw.

BB checks. Initial raiser checks. Cut-off goes all-in for $330.

Hero thinks and folds. All fold to villian who turns over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I thought he must have had either had A J or a set. Either way my only outs are the spades. There were several weak players at the table and I thought that the villian was trying to deprive them of proper odds to draw the flush but hoping one of us would call with just a flush draw.

Should I have called? The pot was laying 740:330 if I called. But thinking he must have a J or a set, don't I need better odds (say 1000:330) to call?

Be brutal.

[Percula]

Fold PF... When a player that is playing tight and has only shown down monsters and is calling PFR, it is time to dump very marginal, dominated hands like QJs.

As played it is still a fold.

[Cesaro]

What the hell? AJ or a set are probably the two least likely hands. If he has AJ it's still an auto call, you're getting over 2-1! Most likely hands in these stupid spots are usually overpairs or some sort of draw, pair/draw combo. You easily have odds against an over pair, against an ace high flush draw you already have a pair and 2 of his outs...

I could go on all day. Basically when playing poker you dont put your opponent on a hand and make a decision. You put him on a hand RANGE and make your decision. His range here makes these a real easy call IMO

[Wes64]

Good points. At the table I thought that AJ was farther ahead than it was. I thought AJ with no spades would be about 3:2 ahead and 77 about 7:3 ahead. Actually, AJ with no spade is a coin flip and I am a donk.

[Cesaro]

Actually I just looked at the odds you gave me in the end...how is the pot giving you 740:330? This obviously changes things a great deal. I prob call anyway though

and for future reference dont post results in your initial write up, it skews answers

[Wes64]

1. On the pot odds: There was $82 in the pot pre-flop. Villian put in $330 on the flop. $330 plus $80 is $410. If I call the pot would be $410 plus $330. I call $330 to win $740.
2. On the posting tip: will do.

[Cesaro]

that's not the way pot odds work though. When the action is on you, there is 410 dollars in the pot. It costs you 330 dollars to call and win 410 dollars, thus your odds are 410:330. You don't "win" your money. According to your logic, if you were in a situation where a man bet 1 thousand dollars into a 1 dollar pot, you would basically be getting 2:1 odds on your call (2001:1000). This would mean you would only have to be right 1/3 of the time to break even. Clearly though if you are right any less than 50% of the time in this situation though, you're losing money.

Got it?

[xcrack999]

your odds are 410:330, not 740:330, but still, I would probably call. It looks very much like he has a draw himself, but who knows, I might not be thinking straight after knowing what he had.

[Requin]

[ QUOTE ]
your odds are 410:330, not 740:330

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a massive difference, if you had the latter its a call, as it is its a fold. Next time flop a set.

[roo400]

don't tell the hand in your desciption. This would have been a great debate