Hero Call Time? From FTP 55k

[mlagoo]

both you and shaun are essentially saying that i should bet to "see where im at," to "make the hand easier to play." youre both also basically admitting that worse hands do not call and better hands do not fold. i think betting this flop is dumb, and until i hear an argument better than "youll figure out where youre at" im gonna keep thinking that.

[sheetsworld]

I like cbet this flop, both on its own merits and also to set up later cbets where you flop stronger. (metgame, shaniac or whatever )

Betting this flop does get "weaker" hands to call actually, especially bb calls. 77 will likely call, as will any flush or straight draw as well as some offsuit 6's etc. Obviously you dont have it easy on later streets as you will need to figure out whEther the turn and river hit them but I think if you are up against a draw you need to charge them for it and if you are up against a 6 or something you need to value bet...call the rationales what you want, I am pretty sure I like to cbet here.

As such, he has missed all draws but connected on the random 6....I think that his action is more indicative of a 6 like 67diaminds than a missed draw but I think there are enough missed spade darws and 57's and 77's that you might actually be able to make a call on the river. The King is a rough one, not because it might have hit him, but because it allows him to not "bluff" into your AK, reducing the likelihood that he is blufifng etc.

I dunno...not such a bad call me thinks but certainly on the edge.

Yikes that definitely had more promise when I was thinking about it....and I am not rewriting it sry



sheets

[MLG]

I really really think checking behind on the flop is fine here. Honestly if I get cr-ed I really hate both my options. Now that doesnt mean that you dont end up with your own set of problems on the turn/river like here. I think folding is fine here, but if you are playing hands this way often it has to be because you guess better than your opponents, so you need to be aware enough of your image/opponents metagame and all that stuff so that you are calling in similar if not identical spots some non trivial % of the time.

[g-p]

[ QUOTE ]
both you and shaun are essentially saying that i should bet to "see where im at," to "make the hand easier to play." youre both also basically admitting that worse hands do not call and better hands do not fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
even if worse hands dont call or better hands dont fold, betting can still be good. if you get info from a bet that will prevent you from making an even bigger mistake later (like calling turn and river pot sized bets) than betting can be fine.

[shaundeeb]

[ QUOTE ]
both you and shaun are essentially saying that i should bet to "see where im at," to "make the hand easier to play." youre both also basically admitting that worse hands do not call and better hands do not fold. i think betting this flop is dumb, and until i hear an argument better than "youll figure out where youre at" im gonna keep thinking that.

[/ QUOTE ]

worse hands do call they are called draws. You also protect your hand vs hands ith 6 outs. I hate myself when I check a flop like this turns a 10x and his J10o beats me and I pay off for a bit on turn or riv.

[People_Mover]

I'm definitely betting the flop. I'm weak tight so I prob. fold the river though. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[NoahSD]

Flop check is good... I assume the table's 9-handed so after he opens UTG there's no value in betting this flop, but there's value in checking and then betting turn.

Turn is obv standard.

I like a call on the river. He could have Kx or 6x. Sometimes he has Qx, but a pretty high % of the time he has XX and is just betting because you showed weakness and the river brought a scare card.

Edit: plus he also checks Qx and sometimes even Kx.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
if you get info from a bet that will prevent you from making an even bigger mistake later (like calling turn and river pot sized bets) than betting can be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for putting this into words. I think everyone who's saying 'don't bet the flop because worse hands fold and better hands call/cr' are a bit too optimistic about our perfect ability to read actions on crappy turn/rivers.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good... I assume the table's 9-handed so after he opens UTG there's no value in betting this flop, but there's value in checking and then betting turn.

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Why?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
both you and shaun are essentially saying that i should bet to "see where im at," to "make the hand easier to play." youre both also basically admitting that worse hands do not call and better hands do not fold. i think betting this flop is dumb, and until i hear an argument better than "youll figure out where youre at" im gonna keep thinking that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity is higher with a bet than with a check, even if we are "turning our hand into a bluff by over repping it".

You want your opponent to fold, even if he has a worse hand. We are probably ahead now, but only slightly ahead. Checking makes sense in WA/WB spots, but not in spots like this where every card in the deck is a scare card. Also, checking induces bluffs, and it's going to be hard to decide what to do (meaning we are close to 0ev if he bluffs). But if we bet, we win the pot right then and there a huge % of the time.

Edit: Also, we are UTG, which means if we bet, we rarely get bluffed, unless he has a big draw, but if we bet like 400, it's kind of an awkward amount where he is overextending if he shoves, but any raise other than a really small one commits his stack. It's good to put your opponents in spots like that when you don't want to get bluffed, but have value in your hand.