JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo

kimos123 · #1 11-11-2007, 08:09 AM

Villian is 22/5/2 over 20 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t895)
UTG (t1935)
Hero (t1735)
MP1 (t1295)
MP2 (t2190)
CO (t960)
Button (t3050)
SB (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t400, MP1 raises to t1295, 5 folds, Hero ?

Lion King · #2 11-11-2007, 08:21 AM

People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.

May I ask why you raised to 4xbb in the first place?

lucid75 · #3 11-11-2007, 08:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
May I ask why you raised to 4xbb in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. 2.5x it. And beat him in the pot.

ger664 · #4 11-11-2007, 09:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what stupid hands do u think villian is shoving over a 4xBB Pre Flop raise when he has PFR of 5% ??

kimos123 · #5 11-11-2007, 09:19 AM

4x BB bc i am in EP and i want to define my hand?
2.5x is too low, people will call you if they have any 2 picture cards on that level.

sence25 · #6 11-11-2007, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
4x BB bc i am in EP and i want to define my hand?
2.5x is too low, people will call you if they have any 2 picture cards on that level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you mind that?

kimos123 · #7 11-11-2007, 09:29 AM

sure i mind it, JJ is weak..
what do you suggest? i dont know why you people want 2.5x BB raise with JJ someone explain?

Lion King · #8 11-11-2007, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what stupid hands do u think villian is shoving over a 4xBB Pre Flop raise when he has PFR of 5% ??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 22/5 is about the avg 6,5 player. The 5 is more from late levels, early levels they prefer the limp-call.
Most of them are not familiar with odds, neither with fold equity.

That having said I believe his range is about 66+,AT+,KQ and maybe even KJs or some other A-rags.

To prove it I have a hand I played last set (which just finished).

Since I still didn't manage to get pt working on star-sng's I don't have stats but he had done nothing special so far.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t1845)
MP (t1478)
CO (t2875)
Button (t1015)
SB (t3782)
BB (t2505)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t275, 2 folds, Button raises to t1015, 2 folds, Hero calls t740.

Flop: (t2180) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t2180) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t2180) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t2180

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Kd (high card, ace).
Button has 7h 7s (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Button wins t2180.

ger664 · #9 11-11-2007, 12:45 PM

Lion King: Was that hand you post against OP villian ? If not it is irrelevent.

Yes most 6.50 donks shove wide and do limp call a lot but you should get into the habit of trying to figure out ranges for each villian action not sticking them in a one fit for all box. We have stats in this case we should at least attempt to use them.

The reason why this is now a call as others have pointed out is that OP raise was too big thus commiting to making a call. He now only needs 36.5% equity to make a call good. Had he raised to t275 he now needs 41% equity and then has to consider what villians range is.

OP Raising 4BB is not bad but your reasoning for doing so is wrong. Raising big to fold out hands that you will gain equity from long term is wrong. You can raise 4xBB with a read that a villian behind will shove wide or call no matter what the size of the raise then its okay.

As you go up in levels adjusting your PF raise levels against the strength of your hand will be explioted by regulars.

Lion King · #10 11-11-2007, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lion King: Was that hand you post against OP villian ? If not it is irrelevent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. We can't tell a push range of a player just by his stats. In my experience 6.5's, even with stats like described villain push with really wide ranges. I posted a 77 hand, I could have posted others, with other weak holdings. They are all irrelevant since no villain is the same and all have different ranges. We can't assume villain here is any different from the rest, but we can't assume he is the same either. I have a standard expectation of a $6.5 player. If I'm off then I make a note and won't do it again.

My whole point is: there is no reason to put him on a different range then another $6.5-er purely based on his stats. In this case it ain't even relevant since we have JJ and will call.

I don't think I made my point about 2.5bb clear. I never bet 2.5bb with JJ with the intention to fold to a shove. I raise to 2.5bb with every hand to be able to get away cheaper from the bottom end of my range. So if I, for instance, raise utg with 99+ and AK and a good player who knows this reshoves I can fold 99 and TT. Just an example. If, in the same example I have AA I also raise to 250 so people never know whether I have 99 or AA. If I raise 400 with JJ, 350 with QQ, 300 with KK and 250 with AA I basically tell people what I have.