For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

Look no further than Dick Cheney's latest speech:

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnew...xml&coll=2

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This action by the House of Representatives is irresponsible and sends exactly the wrong message to our enemy. When members of the Congress speak not of victory but of time limits, deadlines or other arbitrary measures, they're telling the enemy to simply watch the clock and wait us out. It's time the self-appointed strategists on Capitol Hill understood a very simple concept: You cannot win a war if you tell the enemy when you're going to quit.

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At least the executive branch still understands that we cannot defeat Islamo-fascism by pulling out of Iraq before the job is done. Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish? Look no further than Iran's recent capture of British soldiers for evidence that Islamic extremists have already been emboldened by talk of withdrawal. And if we pull out of Iraq, not only will Iraq collapse into chaos, but Iran will accelerate its nuclear program and become even more of a haven for terrorists.

Dick Cheney has the moral clarity to understand this simple logic, and just as importantly, has the courage to follow through with his vision in spite of political pressure.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

So you're going to Dick Cheney for the source of moral clarity. Awesome.
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Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish?

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Honestly, what do you think staying in Iraq is going to accomplish? Seriously, I want to know. What could happen that you would call victory? I've been asking people that support staying there this for a while now and I've yet to get an answer. What is victory in Iraq?
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Look no further than Iran's recent capture of British soldiers for evidence that Islamic extremists have already been emboldened by talk of withdrawal.

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Oh you can read minds now? How do you know it's not because they're pissed off that we keep going into countries and invade them so that we can set up puppet regimes there?
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And if we pull out of Iraq, not only will Iraq collapse into chaos

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Umm, it's not in chaos now? What can the military do there now that leaving afterwards would see it not go into chaos? It was at least not in chaos before invading, and since the war started Iraqis are getting killed at a faster rate then under Sadaam.
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but Iran will accelerate its nuclear program and become even more of a haven for terrorists.


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What the hell does Iran have to do with Iraq? Your saying we won't be able to stop Iran unless we're engaged in a clusterfuck with a country that before we invaded didn't harbor terrorists?
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Dick Cheney has the moral clarity to understand this simple logic,

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Well, it's simple, I wouldn't call it logical though.
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and just as importantly, has the courage to follow through with his vision in spite of political pressure.

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Yes, he'd rather go with his gut rather then common sense. What a good quality.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

shake,

you rule.

steve,

wow. just, wow.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look no further than Dick Cheney's latest speech:

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnew...xml&coll=2

[ QUOTE ]
This action by the House of Representatives is irresponsible and sends exactly the wrong message to our enemy. When members of the Congress speak not of victory but of time limits, deadlines or other arbitrary measures, they're telling the enemy to simply watch the clock and wait us out. It's time the self-appointed strategists on Capitol Hill understood a very simple concept: You cannot win a war if you tell the enemy when you're going to quit.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least the executive branch still understands that we cannot defeat Islamo-fascism by pulling out of Iraq before the job is done.

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The problem (as I see it) is that America cannot defeat Islamofascism by staying there, either. Neither staying nor leaving will accomplish that.

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Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish? Look no further than Iran's recent capture of British soldiers for evidence that Islamic extremists have already been emboldened by talk of withdrawal. And if we pull out of Iraq, not only will Iraq collapse into chaos, but Iran will accelerate its nuclear program and become even more of a haven for terrorists.

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I agree that perceived weakness of the part of the USA emboldens terrorists and their state sponsors. That doesn't mean that suppression of Islamofascism will be the result of staying in Iraq.

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Dick Cheney has the moral clarity to understand this simple logic, and just as importantly, has the courage to follow through with his vision in spite of political pressure.

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Moral clarity is one thing, but pragmatism does not always align itself with ideals. It is true that telling the enemy when one plans to withdraw is not conducive to victory - BUT - that doesn't mean that staying in Iraq will be conducive to victory, either.

Also, even if a temporary peace or "victory" is achieved, what will happen [/i]then[/i] after the USA withdraws, as eventually will occur? The same internal pressures (and some external pressures) that exist now will become dominant again, tearing the country apart in bloodshed and chaos.

The logic you applaud Cheney for invoking makes sense if you think that the war and a liberal democratic peace can somehow be won in Iraq. My own view is that such victory is unlikely. Just as Afghanistan is still not "won" for liberal democracy and peace, so too will Iraq not likely be won for the same.

The Neo-Con dream of installing democracy in the Middle East is just that: a dream, not based on any sound assessment of likelihood for success or failure.

Since the Neo-Cons would like for it to occur, and since it seems very important to future energy security that it must occur, the argument goes that it will occur--but something is missing here, is it not? On what basis is the assessment of chances for success considered positive? Hope and Need are not reasons to think something will be successful. The Neo-Cons also argue that American or Western values themselves will succeed because, as President Bush put it, every human heart longs for freedom. Has anyone critically dissected that remark ("every human heart longs for freedom") to determine if it is true? My observation is that it is not true as a blanket statement - not by a long shot. So the Neo-Cons have based the rationale for this sustained war effort on a matter of faith - and have maintained as an article of faith that it will succeed, too. Results to date are not encouraging, however.

Whatever happened to dispassionate analysis? And where has pragmatism gone? Is faith now to rule America's international political decisions and even wars? The odd thing is, the Neo-Cons probably don't even realize that their war and dream of bring democracy to the Middle East is predicated on faith - just because it is not religious faith, does not mean it is not faith.

Faith is something that is between a person and God, or between a man and wife - faith is not something to base a sustained war effort on.

Thus far, the Neo-Cons' faith-based war (based on faith that liberal democracy can be implanted in the Middle East) has not borne sweet fruit, but rather bitter (and tremendously expensive as well). On what evidence or logic should it be presumed that it will bear good fruit in the future?

As for Iran's nuclear ambitions: those ambitions will remain and will be pressed forward regardless of whether America stays in Iraq or not. If airstikes to cripple and set back Iran's nuclear progress are to be made, they can be made without large numbers of ground troops in Iraq. Of course (in my opinion) a ground invasion of Iran would be folly.

Well, that was admittedly long, so a sincere thanks to all who read through it, for bearing with me.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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So you're going to Dick Cheney for the source of moral clarity. Awesome.
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Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish?

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Honestly, what do you think staying in Iraq is going to accomplish?

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Come on, this is easy.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/591/halbs3.png

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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So you're going to Dick Cheney for the source of moral clarity. Awesome.
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, what do you think staying in Iraq is going to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, this is easy.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/591/halbs3.png

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That's the best you can do? Success in Iraq and the profitability of Halliburton are not mutually exclusive.

Why don't you complain about CEOs being overpaid and Walmart making excessive profits while you are at it.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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What could happen that you would call victory? I've been asking people that support staying there this for a while now and I've yet to get an answer. What is victory in Iraq?

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Democracy, freedom, peace, prosperity, etc.It's not very complicated.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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So you're going to Dick Cheney for the source of moral clarity. Awesome.
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, what do the democrats think a dealine for pulling out will accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, what do you think staying in Iraq is going to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, this is easy.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/591/halbs3.png

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That's the best you can do? Success in Iraq and the profitability of Halliburton are not mutually exclusive.

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Who said anything about success in Iraq? The question I was answering was about *staying* in Iraq. Try to keep up. And yes, HAL's profits are intimately tied to US military activity. The objection is that *my* money is being appropriated for purposes I object to.

Try getting people to voluntarily pay for the war. When you get your bill for your share, let me know how great of an idea it is.

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Why don't you complain about CEOs being overpaid and Walmart making excessive profits while you are at it.

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Strawman of the day.

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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What could happen that you would call victory? I've been asking people that support staying there this for a while now and I've yet to get an answer. What is victory in Iraq?

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Democracy, freedom, peace, prosperity, etc.It's not very complicated.

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I think that is a fair definition; now let me ask you: on what basis, for what reasons, do you think that can/will actually be achieved?

Re: For those of you who are still unsure about what moral clarity is
 

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What could happen that you would call victory? I've been asking people that support staying there this for a while now and I've yet to get an answer. What is victory in Iraq?

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Democracy, freedom, peace, prosperity, etc.It's not very complicated.

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I think that is a fair definition; now let me ask you: on what basis, for what reasons, do you think that can/will actually be achieved?

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Because if they don't learn to love each other and live in perfect harmony, we'll keep blowing them the [censored] up obviously. Democracy Through Force!