10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

10/15 NL cash game (I know, wierd limit) at the Trop in AC. 7 players at the table, pretty much all of them ABC. My table image is tight. I'm in the big blind with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Huge hand, I know. UTG raises to $45 pref (standard raise), one middle caller, and I call. Flop 322 rainbow. Bingo. Checked around. Turn Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] putting a flushdraw out there. I check, raiser checks, button bets $75. I call b/c I don't want to loser the riaser, which I don't. In fact, he raises $250 on top. I IMMEDIATELY put him on aces. button folds, I call with the intention of checkraising on the river. River is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, he bets $400. $875 in the pot, I have $3500, he has me covered. I go into the tank and fold face up. Table goes wild, I'm an idiot, he's got AQ, blah, blah blah.....

Before calling me a whackjob, here's my reasoning: This guy is ABC, hasn't shown a bluff in the day and a half I played with him. Always bets out on the flop after raising preflop when 2-3 handed. So he checks the 322 flop? Would he do that with AQ? Not afraid of a free card...... hmmmmm. He's got something, that's for sure.

OK, so I've eliminated AQ, what's left? With KK he doesn't bet $400 on the river. With A2 he doesn't preflop raise. QQ is possible, but he probably bets the flop for fear of an A or K coming. At this point, I'm about 90% sure he's got AA or 33, with 5% going to a bluff and 5% going to AQ. Looking back, it's not that hard of a fold in my eyes. Granted I'm getting 3/1, but I have him on such a small range of hands (2 really), that I think folding is correct even though I flopped a boat with garbage.

Privately, he told me he had me and he doesn't understand how I could lay that down. He wouldn't say what he had, but the more I think about it, I think 33 is more likely than AA because of the check on the turn with 2 hearts out there. Or maybe he was saying that to make me feel better, who knows. At least 3 people on the table said he would've had all their money, which goes to show how bad at reading hands they are.

And yes, I could've pushed on the turn but why? He most likely lays down the aces, and if I could get another $1000-$1200 from him on the river and there are only 2 cards that beat me (I thought he had AA at the time), checking gives me the greatest equity.

Thoughts?

Lee


ps- By the way, this face-up fold helped me snap off no less than three bluffs from other guys at the table over the next 5 hours.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

i dont mean to come off as insulting, but that is just a terrible terrible terrible fold. If you cant bring yourself to raise the river at least call. wow.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Dude I play SSNL and know this is bad.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I appreciate your opinion, but please give some reasons as to why you feel my thinking is incorrect?

Do you think he was bluffing $400 on the river in an $875 pot after I called $325 on the turn? Do you think he checks the flop and check-raises the turn with AQ? I feel blindly calling because I have a big hand without thinking the hand through isn't usually the best way to go.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

you should be a detective

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

you need to put more money in on this hand, simple as that. On the flop you're going for a check raise. fine. On the turn, if you put him on aces why don't you raise on top after the 250, surely he won't fold then. And besides, you should have check-raised; you have a 3500 stack and you want to get it in. You can't do that by check-calling $75 bets.

On the river, you fold. I mean WOW, you FOLD. First of all, there is no reason he cannot be valuebetting a worse hand, especially AQ. This is not a situation where all you beat is a bluff. And of course calling alone seems to be missing tons of value. Its hard to believe that there aren't any worse hands this guy could have that would pay you off - again, especially AQ.

Even if AQ, QQ, and AA are the only hands he could possibly have, there are 3 aces left in the deck for 3 ways to make AA and there are 3 aces and 3 queens left for 9 ways to make AQ. And there are 3 combinations of QQ. 6 hands you lose to 9 you beat. You are getting 3:1. You must AT LEAST call.

And of course he should show up with Ax[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 45, a missed heart draw, etc. at least some of the time.

This hand is atrocious.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

scccaarrrreddd monneeeeeyyyy

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I made at least a few $500-$800 calls with middle pairs on the river in this same game. I went with my read here. In no way am I scared money.

Lee

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

This is obviously a joke.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Yeah actually the only scared money option there is a call. Folding that you clearly care more about the game and making sick plays than the actual money.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

wow... just wow.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

if you put him on aa, put in more money on the turn

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

You're correct. If one thing was questionable, it was my turn play. My feeling was that I didn't want to lose him and felt he could've gotten away from aces there because he's a fairly tight player. Maybe he couldn't have in retrospect.

My argument is there's no way he could check the 322 flop after raising pre with AQ, or Ax or 45s for that matter, which helps me eliminate those as possibilities.

Based on this info, I feel the only hand I could beat is a bluff, and since I hadn't seen him bluff in almost 2 days, I don't think 3/1 was all that good. Plus, the amount was not a bluff bet because he's not tricky enough to make that kind of "I'm thinking that you're thinking that I'm thinking" kind of bet.

Also, like I said, I think 33 is the most likely hand he had. Granted it's only one hand, but I think that's what he had after checking the flop and turn.

Lee

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

If that's how you play when you flop big, you shouldn't be calling with 32s from the blinds, it doesn't hit often enough.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

yeah srsly wait for the straight flush to hit before you put any money in

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
At least 3 people on the table said he would've had all their money, which goes to show how bad at reading hands they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I check, raiser checks, button bets $75. I call b/c I don't want to loser the riaser, which I don't. In fact, he raises $250 on top. I IMMEDIATELY put him on aces. button folds, I call with the intention of checkraising on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why you put him on AA and only AA. it's such an attrocious way to play aces there, a player making such bad plays is certainly capable of bungling several other hands with this line.

and your plan of calling the turn to checkraise the river is so bad. the pot would have 375 and you have 10 times that left going into the river (assuming the raiser calls like you planned). what do you think he has that will pay off a big checkraise on the river after you made 2 calls on the turn with a paired board. certainly at least A2s is in your range.
you should have led the turn. a turn checkraise on that paired board is much more likely to scare off a queen than a lead, which could easily be another Q or random crap trying to pick up a pot noone was interested in on the flop. leading this turn is a lot better than checking.
given that you checked, you have to checkraise. by calling, the most money you're going to get is another value bet on the river, where raising gives you at least the possibility of a 3rd bet.
given that you called, you have to raise.

given your read, i'm fine with not raising the river, but you absolutely have to call given those ridiculous odds.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

[ QUOTE ]

My argument is there's no way he could check the 322 flop after raising pre with AQ, or Ax or 45s for that matter, which helps me eliminate those as possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf are u talking about, of course he can check the flop w/those hands

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Very good point about leading out on the turn. In fact, leading out on the flop would've been ok also.

My thinking on just calling the 75 on the turn is that nobody had anything and at this point except a Q or flush draw, and any type of checkraise is going to lose them. I'm trying to get as much value as I can from this hand, even if it's only 200-300 more from a Q or PP, and 500-700 more if the flush comes and someone has hearts. But you're right, leading out was probably the way to go.

As for why I was thinking aces, there weren't many big pots in this game to this point, so I think he was trying to get value from his hand by checking just like I was. The maniac had left the table a few hours before and the game clammed up.

Nobody here thinks a reraise from a perceived tight player would've lost the aces?

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

this is horrible lol. so horrible.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Given his propensity for continuation bets after preflop raises, there's no way he checks any of those hands.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given his propensity for continuation bets after preflop raises, there's no way he checks any of those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Am I in Wonderland or did you just say there's no way he checks AQ when he, in fact, did check AQ?

edit: just realised the table said he had AQ, but you don't know what he really had. still a terribly hand, fwiw.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

you shold have written the title as

"Inside the mind of a newb"

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Sometimes you can be too clever and often first thoughts always assume worse case scenario, if the entire table is playing tight-ass ABC poker they will hardly ever have a deuce there so you should take that out of the equasion. The easy solution is if you are unprepared to take any heat in a hand where you have flopped a rag boat then simply don't play them.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, like I said, I think 33 is the most likely hand he had. Granted it's only one hand, but I think that's what he had after checking the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have one of the [censored] 3s. Jesus.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Without reading all the replies, there is pretty much ZERO percent chance an ABC player checks AA/QQ here on the flop nore does an ABC player raise 33 enough to ever make this a fold. He would clearly check AQ/AK on the flop so he can't get C/R off the hand and try to catch up to middle pairs. There is no way this guy had you beat no matter what he said to you and you clearly hate money here.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

AHAHAHA bet flop... c/r turn... get two outed on the river if he really has AA which I guarentee he doesn't. There is no way you can fold this as played.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

lol

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

screw all the haters, go with your reads

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

this one time i had a read and it was wrong, but i still think i made a good read - what do you think?

in practice, THINKING about a fold MIGHT make sense, and the fact that you're assigning hand ranges is, umm good. but, the way live games play, this is a dumb fold. wtf. i wish you could edit your post, and change it to ask, "is this a river c/r?" i would then be a somewhat redeeming thread.


this weekend i raised ATs in mp in a 5/10 live game after a couple of limpers, bb and one or two limpers. flop Axx, i bet, bb calls, turn chk chk, riv he leads 300, and i think for like 5 seconds and call. he says "you're good" and the table looks at me like i'm insane for even thinking before calling, they're like "you had an ace wtf were you thinking for?" i'm not sure what the exact point of this story was because i haven't taken my add meds today, but it has something to do with not overthinking in live games.

wanna ride bikes?

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

wow, this is hilarious. seems to me like you butchered the hand and then wanted to show everyone how awesome you are for making such a "great" fold. there's no room for ego in this game bro.

it really does look like you are playing with scared money. im thinking that you put him on 33 on the flop, QQ on the turn, and of course the grand finale AA on the river. imo, this is a snap call. the only issue is whether you should be raising.

also, at my local casino there are a lot of younger guys who play the 5/5 and 5/10 no limit who love to show how awesome they are for making "big" folds. i think usually its more just because they're on tilt for having to fold another overpair to an "obvious" set. fwiw, i always tell these people i had them when they show what they folded, whether i did or not (usually not against these weak tight fishies [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]).

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I have him on Q3, nf.

James

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I like it.

Barry Greenstein once said (and echo many times by the great Phil Helmuth) that to be world-class, you have to be able to make ridiculous laydowns that seem aweful to those around you. Remember, a full-house is only two and a half pairs.

I figured this hand would receive this type of reception....
 

I'm not surprised that most of the people here have sided with the rest of the table in the "you're an idiot" department. I did however think there would be more people in the "go with your reads" group.

First of all, I want to thank anybody that had any actual input in this thread other than "LOL" or "scared money" or whatever. I've been playing professionally for around 6 years with a mixture of online and live play, and mostly PLO, PLO8, limit HE, and more recently NLHE with a few tourneys sprinkled in. I know the odds, I do the math, I make good calls, I make good folds, and for the most part I'm an aggressive player in most games. Sometimes I'm guilty of tricky play syndrome, but not because I want to show everyone how great I am. It's usually because I will sometimes overthink the situation or get greedy. I also rarely show my hands whether I won, lost, or mucked, but in this case, showing such an incredibly off-the-wall laydown opened the door for me to bluff at some pots at a tight table, as well as induce bluffs from guys who think I'll fold everything but the nuts.

I agree that I probably butchered the hand on the turn- I should have led out. However, I really feel like a checkraise here gets the aces to fold given my image at that table and the way the original raiser plays which makes it more clear to me that leading out gets the most money in the pot, and when the he raises, I smooth call and checkraise the river.

With that all said, there are many situations where you can narrow your opponents holdings down to only a few hands because of how he plays and how the action on the hand played. For me, this was one of those situations, and it saved me $400 on a river call that seems automatic at first glance. Just because the odds justify making the call, doesn't mean you should just ignore everything you've learned over the years and make the call. It's amazing to me how many people walk away from a poker table broke muttering stuff like "I knew you had a set". Sometimes going with your reads will save you a lot of money, even if the odds say stay in the hand.

Coincidentally (or maybe not), the three people who were truly bashing on me for laying the hand down walked away broke, and from the point that I folded my boat I completely dominated the table without ever really catching a great run of cards.

Lee

Re: I figured this hand would receive this type of reception....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that most of the people here have sided with the rest of the table in the "you're an idiot" department. I did however think there would be more people in the "go with your reads" group.

First of all, I want to thank anybody that had any actual input in this thread other than "LOL" or "scared money" or whatever. I've been playing professionally for around 6 years with a mixture of online and live play, and mostly PLO, PLO8, limit HE, and more recently NLHE with a few tourneys sprinkled in. I know the odds, I do the math, I make good calls, I make good folds, and for the most part I'm an aggressive player in most games. Sometimes I'm guilty of tricky play syndrome, but not because I want to show everyone how great I am. It's usually because I will sometimes overthink the situation or get greedy. I also rarely show my hands whether I won, lost, or mucked, but in this case, showing such an incredibly off-the-wall laydown opened the door for me to bluff at some pots at a tight table, as well as induce bluffs from guys who think I'll fold everything but the nuts.

I agree that I probably butchered the hand on the turn- I should have led out. However, I really feel like a checkraise here gets the aces to fold given my image at that table and the way the original raiser plays which makes it more clear to me that leading out gets the most money in the pot, and when the he raises, I smooth call and checkraise the river.

With that all said, there are many situations where you can narrow your opponents holdings down to only a few hands because of how he plays and how the action on the hand played. For me, this was one of those situations, and it saved me $400 on a river call that seems automatic at first glance. Just because the odds justify making the call, doesn't mean you should just ignore everything you've learned over the years and make the call. It's amazing to me how many people walk away from a poker table broke muttering stuff like "I knew you had a set". Sometimes going with your reads will save you a lot of money, even if the odds say stay in the hand.

Coincidentally (or maybe not), the three people who were truly bashing on me for laying the hand down walked away broke, and from the point that I folded my boat I completely dominated the table without ever really catching a great run of cards.

Lee

[/ QUOTE ]
ahh you thought you were playing PLO... it all makes sense now

Re: I figured this hand would receive this type of reception....
 

Heh, that was actually pretty funny.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

Please at least call...

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I think it's great that you went with your read, but this case is one of those where you go with that read and just call, never go with it and fold.

Re: I figured this hand would receive this type of reception....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that most of the people here have sided with the rest of the table in the "you're an idiot" department. I did however think there would be more people in the "go with your reads" group.

First of all, I want to thank anybody that had any actual input in this thread other than "LOL" or "scared money" or whatever. I've been playing professionally for around 6 years with a mixture of online and live play, and mostly PLO, PLO8, limit HE, and more recently NLHE with a few tourneys sprinkled in. I know the odds, I do the math, I make good calls, I make good folds, and for the most part I'm an aggressive player in most games. Sometimes I'm guilty of tricky play syndrome, but not because I want to show everyone how great I am. It's usually because I will sometimes overthink the situation or get greedy. I also rarely show my hands whether I won, lost, or mucked, but in this case, showing such an incredibly off-the-wall laydown opened the door for me to bluff at some pots at a tight table, as well as induce bluffs from guys who think I'll fold everything but the nuts.

I agree that I probably butchered the hand on the turn- I should have led out. However, I really feel like a checkraise here gets the aces to fold given my image at that table and the way the original raiser plays which makes it more clear to me that leading out gets the most money in the pot, and when the he raises, I smooth call and checkraise the river.

With that all said, there are many situations where you can narrow your opponents holdings down to only a few hands because of how he plays and how the action on the hand played. For me, this was one of those situations, and it saved me $400 on a river call that seems automatic at first glance. Just because the odds justify making the call, doesn't mean you should just ignore everything you've learned over the years and make the call. It's amazing to me how many people walk away from a poker table broke muttering stuff like "I knew you had a set". Sometimes going with your reads will save you a lot of money, even if the odds say stay in the hand.

Coincidentally (or maybe not), the three people who were truly bashing on me for laying the hand down walked away broke, and from the point that I folded my boat I completely dominated the table without ever really catching a great run of cards.

Lee

[/ QUOTE ]
ahh you thought you were playing PLO/8... it all makes sense now

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

I normally don't make posts like this, but wow...

Stop wasting our time, it's clear that you aren't being receptive to what people have to say and are just looking to show off. The fold still sucks.

Post less.

Re: 10/15 NL- opinions on this laydown.....
 

After reading this and the Foxwood thread, it seems that HSNL has gotten to a point where I can actually beat the OPs. How sad is that. The JMan thread was good tho.