($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Hi. Never posted here before, but I'm a limit player trying to learn NL SNGs. I've gathered a lot of info and posts, and I'm just getting started. So, please just flame away. I have a friend helping me learn, but this is only my 2nd one since having any speck of knowledge.

Villain is unknown

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t230)
MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t2770)
Button (t820)
Hero (t775)
BB (t760)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="red">Button bets t80</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

I guess folding here may be prudent, since I'm yet to see how the others will respond. Coming from limit, folding a four flush on the flop gives my hives...

Turn: (t310) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's hero's plan here? Does a donk bet have any value here? A check/raise?...seems I need some read

Let's say I check and villain bets 275, am I done?

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.

Onaflag..........

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

yeah...ok. When I called, I remember my friend saying something like:

No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands

So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not from me. I'm a crappy post flop player. That's why I play SNGs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Onaflag.........

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

A big difference between NL SNG's and limit ring is that your implied odds will dictate everything here whereas you're really looking more at pot odds in limit ring. Anyway, the button's bet could really mean anything, so I think you should be folding that flop or putting a big check-raise. Your jack and eight may or may not be live. Your flush is only J-high. When you make a hand it will be poorly disguised.

If you do call, donking the turn only serves to scare him. I actually think you're ahead here a fair amount of the time now. Check-call small bets, but 275 is too much to call with second pair. You could consider semi-bluffing the turn, but I thin k you're better off doing that on the flop if that's the line you want to take.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.



Onaflag..........

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a horrible preflop fold. He's getting a billion to one for a billionth of his stack.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I'm pretty sure this is a call preflop especially since at the $11s you can usually see a draw for a min bet.

call on the flop is fine for implied odds.

I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.

I hate the idea of donking or check/raising anywhere in this hand. I used to be a low limit player and sometimes think about doing this. but the main goal when calling this hand from SB early on is to see draws cheaply, get a lot of chips when you hit but lose only a small amount of chips when you miss.

a check/raise or donk might be slightly +cEV but early on in the game you need more than just slight +cEV since you are one of the best players in the tournament and have more +EV from just having chips

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I agree with everything Prodigy said.

Call preflop is fine as long as you don't get carried away.
Call on the flop is fine with a flush and straight draw.
I'd check the turn and see what develops.

RYan

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi. Never posted here before, but I'm a limit player trying to learn NL SNGs. I've gathered a lot of info and posts, and I'm just getting started. So, please just flame away. I have a friend helping me learn, but this is only my 2nd one since having any speck of knowledge.

Villain is unknown

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t230)
MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t2770)
Button (t820)
Hero (t775)
BB (t760)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="red">Button bets t80</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

I guess folding here may be prudent, since I'm yet to see how the others will respond. Coming from limit, folding a four flush on the flop gives my hives...

Turn: (t310) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's hero's plan here? Does a donk bet have any value here? A check/raise?...seems I need some read

Let's say I check and villain bets 275, am I done?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're one of my limit poster hero's, although I hardly ever post in any of the limit forums - I still read them often to pick up things here and there. So welcome to the forum QTip.

I usually fold this pf with that many callers. I may play along in levels 1 or 2 if the field is limited to one limper.

The 11s are a minefield and I've probably played as many 11s as any other poster unfortunately, and I've been playing them again on the weekends after moving to the 22s during the week. One thing to remember about the 11s is that you will be called more often than not regardless of what kind of cards your villains are holding, this can be good and bad.

On the flop, fold. With a draw, you are just bleeding chips off with your call. Your chips = power in level 4 and beyond.

Pay attention to the VPIP's of other players as well as your own. You will often notice the chip leaders in the 11s will have a VPIP well over 35. Thats normal and they are getting lucky. You need to find spots to take advantage of their laggishness when you know you are ahead. FWIW, my vpip in my last 300 tourneys is less than 7 in the first 3 levels. As the blinds go up, my vpip goes up dramatically.

Tight is right in the early levels. There are opportunities to pick up chips in the blinds but you need to recognize when that opportunity presents itself and know when to get away from a hand.

Welcome to the forum QTip.

GTR

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I like the complete preflop. Lots of good can happen with a hand like this out of the blinds.

On the flop, I like a check to see the action, and button's bet looks blatantly like a positional bet. Furthermore, with this coordinated board, I don't think too many other hands like a set/2 pair, would check this through, so its often likely that the other hands have weak holdings.

You called which is okay. I would think with 12 strong outs, and potentially another 3 outs for your J, you can often just take command of the hand right here on the flop. I would think button has anything from a mid/small pair to, well, nothing/ace high. I think taking command of this hand on the flop is best here.

With this turn, I probably just lead/shove. Of course, checking and seeing what happens is fine, as long as you're folding to a substantial bet when you check. I play the $33s, so I don't know how playing from the blinds is on the $11s.

Welcome to the forum.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So you're already down to 665 chips after calling the flop bet by the button, and you are considering calling up to 175 more in check/calling the turn which takes you down to less than 500 chips. What is the plan for the river?

I totally disagree with this line.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

you really wouldn't take that t80 chance? He's gettin almost 3:1 on his call if no one else calls.

I understand the advantage of have 80 more chips in L3 or L4 and on, but the chance to get another t500 or more so early on without much risk I think is a great opportunity.

His 13 outs is almost definitely good against just the villain although maybe not against another caller or so.

I just think that that opportunity is just too much to pass up for t80.

Maybe I'm wrong..I haven't been playing these nearly as long as you have and the $11s are the only ones I've played a lot?

I'm very confused as usual [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.



Onaflag..........

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a horrible preflop fold. He's getting a billion to one for a billionth of his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.....I wouldn't call it horrible at all and your math is a tad off. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I don't see a problem completing and hoping for a monster.

Completing with the intention of seeing a draw through can and often will deplete your stack enough that you'll think twice about getting married to a draw again under these conditions.

I'm still folding and if that's a tad too tight, that's fine. It could probably swing either way anyway.

Onaflag...........

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So you're already down to 665 chips after calling the flop bet by the button, and you are considering calling up to 175 more in check/calling the turn which takes you down to less than 500 chips. What is the plan for the river?

I totally disagree with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK i'm going to stop he and say that I am also somewhat new to these games, but I Still think that the flop call is the right move.

At the higher buy-ins I wouldn't suggest check/calling up to t175 on the turn and probably not even the t80 on the flop, but I think it is the best move in the $11s since a check/raise or lead bet might be called by low pair and your push on a hit might be called by a mid or high pair.

I think that on average at the end of this hand you are down to t500 about 60% of the time or up to t1200-t1600 about 40%. I agree that t300 lost is worth more than t300 won, but there is a lot to gain from this hand and I think it's too much to give up for t80 on the flop

The turn call I think its much more debatable and might suggest lowing that call threshhold to t150 or lower, but still think it's callable

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I would put a small donkbet in here, it usually gets called (as opposed to raised) and you can price yourself in to see the river cheaply. I don't consider your pair good but your draw very strong and thus I don't particularly want to fold it.

Preflop: fine
Flop: fine

You're good at poker in general so you know why both of those are correct.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Look, just don't play it like this.

<font color="white"> Just messing with you curtains. </font>

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I don't think you going to make a lot of money long term by calling away your FE on draws. I like Slim Pickens line:

[ QUOTE ]
A big difference between NL SNG's and limit ring is that your implied odds will dictate everything here whereas you're really looking more at pot odds in limit ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]

I usually fold this pf with that many callers. I may play along in levels 1 or 2 if the field is limited to one limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're completely backwards on this!

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I know.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you going to make a lot of money long term by calling away your FE on draws. I like Slim Pickens line:

[ QUOTE ]
A big difference between NL SNG's and limit ring is that your implied odds will dictate everything here whereas you're really looking more at pot odds in limit ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a comment abou 3:1 in the pot but didn't mean that that was the most important part. The implied odds are the reason to stay in this for t80 are they not?

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Haven't read any responses yet because I want to see if what I think is right:

1. Fold preflop.
2. If you plan on calling the flop bet, bet out yourself instead.
3. You're finished on the turn, check/fold.

-The problem with completing the blinds is you end up posting hands like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
-The problem with checking and calling the turn is you get no information on your opponent. Does he have a pair? In this case even check raising to ~t180 would be better. But you don't have many chips to work with, so betting 3/4 the pot on your draw and folding to a raise is a better option.
-You have to fold the turn. You don't have odds on a 5-1 draw. And you're not ahead as often as you wish you were.

Ok now lets see how close I was.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I made a comment abou 3:1 in the pot but didn't mean that that was the most important part. The implied odds are the reason to stay in this for t80 are they not?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds are a wash here. You're getting odds to take another card (unless someone behind you c/r's). The thing I don't like is that when that third diamond hits, it's hard to get paid off. The gutshot is the best, and you don't know if a pair is good. Low-limit SNG players like to be scared of the obvious. On the other hand, you have a lot of folding equity when you semi-bluff here. I think you're better off relying on that to make money on this hand rather than first hitting you hand and then trying to get paid for it.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

I agree with Slim Pickens and would check-raise this flop all-in, with both draws, and possibility of the jacks being outs as well, you have at least 12 outs and possibly 15, so we'll call it 13 for argument's sake. Of course I don't know how good your FE will be against a typical $11 donk with this line, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

On the plus side, they'll never expect a check-raise all-in with a draw. There's a decent chance they'll fold a better hand purely out of confusion.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I made a comment abou 3:1 in the pot but didn't mean that that was the most important part. The implied odds are the reason to stay in this for t80 are they not?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds are a wash here. You're getting odds to take another card (unless someone behind you c/r's). The thing I don't like is that when that third diamond hits, it's hard to get paid off. The gutshot is the best, and you don't know if a pair is good. Low-limit SNG players like to be scared of the obvious. On the other hand, you have a lot of folding equity when you semi-bluff here. I think you're better off relying on that to make money on this hand rather than first hitting you hand and then trying to get paid for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're talking about a semi-bluff leading out on the turn right? If this is the case, I can see how this might be the best play, my problem is the amount to semi bluff, I'm guessing t200 or so, but in that case I think more is being put into the pot that needs to be.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

No he's on about semi bluffing all in on the flop, I believe. Or at least, an amount big enough that you're committed on the turn, or give the impression of being. I don't like to do that less than all-in OOP though and it reduces FE a little, especially against a non-thinking $11 muppet.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Oh I see.

I wouldn't do that because I'm a wuss, but maybe that would be best.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Thank you everyone for your kind welcome to your forum and your thought-provoking responses.

I have very little NL experience, so I'm just trying to go with what poker knowledge I have.

Right now, I think I like the call flop and donk turn line. On a board like that, I do think you would less frequently see a raise, and would be able to set the price for your draw. I like that thought.

I also considered taking the lead on the flop with a c/r, but my understanding has been that the 10s are something like my .5/1 lhe world, and I'm not going to see much folding of top pair and the like.

I'm just learning about the differences in EP play compared to later play, so I wasn't really sure how active to get in this hand.

Thanks again,

QTip


Thanks again.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

Just want to make sure this gets through, because I didn't see enough people agreeing with this:
Preflop: Complete. Every time.
Flop: First check was fine, with button's bet I sometimes CR because it really looks like a position steal, but call is fine too (maybe at the 11s call is optimal). No way should you ever fold this.
Turn: Check is ok, but I like a smallish bet. The bottom could easily have nothing here and fold. If he does have something, often he will just call this. If he raises, well you know how to work out odds.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Slim Pickens and would check-raise this flop all-in, with both draws, and possibility of the jacks being outs as well, you have at least 12 outs and possibly 15, so we'll call it 13 for argument's sake. Of course I don't know how good your FE will be against a typical $11 donk with this line, so take it with a pinch of salt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who likes the C/R all-in on the flop. So... the guy made some puss bet on the flop. I'd say 3/4 of the time, you take down the pot with your C/R, 1/4 of the time you get called with a ton of outs. If you're going to play this hand, play it aggressively, dammit! On an 11, his flop bet means... two cards. Blow him away with your C/R and move on.

Re: ($10) I get in trouble from the sb
 

In order from best to worst:

1) Fold to the bet. even though yopu may have a +chip EV situation, I doubt that edge is even enough to make it +$EV to call the bet. To talk ICM (at least qualitatively), the chips you could win here are worth less than the chips you could lose. Folding might be a small mistake, but playing a large, potentially multiway pot with a marginal hand makes it easy make big mistakes. At the 11's, your opponents will make enough big maistakes of their own, so you don't need to push edges this small.

2) Check-raise the flop. The button's bet could be a pure positional bet, or it could be real. A check-raise of a bet immediately to your right forces the field to call a big chunk of their stacks, and even low-limit players usually figure out to fold middle pair to a big check-raise. If the button's bet is purely positional, you might take the pot right there. You might also clean up a lot of your outs by getting overcards to fold, and if any of those are diamonds, you've cleansed yourself of the flush redraw. I think the check-raise is only slightly worse than folding. Some may think it's better.

3) Call the flop. All this does is let everyone call behind you with weak made hands and odds for crappy draws that beat you, like Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Large pot + multiway + marginal cEV = bad for you.

After the flop call, the turn leaves you with a hard decision (why I dislike the flop call...). The donking line seems like a decent one, as does a check-raise of a small bet. If his bet is large enough that you think he'll think he's committed to this pot if you go all-in, then you have to fold. Most opponents at the 11's aren't getting away from QT here, so you're drawing to your (9+4+3) 16 outs. You may barely have odds to do so, but again, marginal cEV is usually -$EV in a tournament.