Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

Proof that the orthodox christian God doesnt exist:

Orthodox Christians believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost are three distinct entities. They also believe that each is wholly God.

The above beliefs entail that 3 equals one or that identity is not transitive. It is impossible for 3 to equal one or for identity to not be transitive. Hence, orthodox christians believe in an impossible God. Hence, the God they believe in doesn't exist.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Catechism/3/l3.html

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Proof that the orthodox christian God doesnt exist:

Orthodox Christians believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost are three distinct entities. They also believe that each is wholly God.

The above beliefs entail a contradiction. It is impossible for contradictory statements to both be true. Hence, orthodox christians believe in an impossible God. Hence, the God they believe in doesn't exist.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Catechism/3/l3.html

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You forgot the part in orthodox christianity that states that humans can't reason about god. Pointing out that the trinity is perplexing is nothing new and no argument that it's wrong. BTW I'm an Atheist.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

It is not a mystery or perplexing it is provably impossible.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

when I said "God can't be reasoned about" that means humans aren't capable of doing it. ie god is beyond human comprehension, ie irrational ie, what you said was not a proof.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

God and His attributes > mathematical laws He created regarding a universe He created and whose laws don't limit Him.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

I comprehend that 3 does not equal 1 and because of this the God they believe in is impossible.

Anything humans can believe in can be reasoned about.

I can say 2 + 2 = 7 and that this is beyond your reasoning capabilities so you cant prove me wrong. Obviously it can be reasoned about just like every other belief that can be contained in our skulls.

You guys really think if God willed it, then 2+2 would equal 7 and that he could make a squirrel fatter than itself etc.. ?

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

It is three distinct persons in one God, not three gods in one God. 1*1*1 = 1

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

So the father multiplied by the son multiplied by the holy spirit equals god?

I remember this nonsense from catholic school. They come up with a mystery that's supposed to defy human logic and cannot translate into a rational logical or mathematical statement, but then come up with something that doesn't fit the analogy and try to do it anyway because it looks nice.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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It is three distinct persons in one God, not three gods in one God. 1*1*1 = 1

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No, this is wrong. Allegedly, they are each wholly God. Checkout the Catechism link in my OP.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

"No, this is wrong. Allegedly, they are each wholly God. Checkout the Catechism link in my OP."

They are wholly God because they are the same God. For example, we can have Bork in a good mood, a bad mood and an indifferent mood. Bork encompasses all three moods which are distinct, but they still make up Bork. If you wake up in a good mood one day, and a bad mood the other day, you have not changed the fact that you are Bork, the same Bork who is also the good mood Bork.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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"No, this is wrong. Allegedly, they are each wholly God. Checkout the Catechism link in my OP."

They are wholly God because they are the same God. For example, we can have Bork in a good mood, a bad mood and an indifferent mood. Bork encompasses all three moods which are distinct, but they still make up Bork. If you wake up in a good mood one day, and a bad mood the other day, you have not changed the fact that you are Bork, the same Bork who is also the good mood Bork.

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Can there be a good mood Bork, bad mood Bork, and indifferent Bork all at once? Or does god one day wake up as the son, the next day the holy spirt, then the following day the father?

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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"No, this is wrong. Allegedly, they are each wholly God. Checkout the Catechism link in my OP."

They are wholly God because they are the same God. For example, we can have Bork in a good mood, a bad mood and an indifferent mood. Bork encompasses all three moods which are distinct, but they still make up Bork. If you wake up in a good mood one day, and a bad mood the other day, you have not changed the fact that you are Bork, the same Bork who is also the good mood Bork.

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No your analogy confuses me with my moods. Each mood is distinct. However, happy bork, sad bork, and indifferent bork, are not distinct entities or people. They are all one entity Bork.

They think the father IS God. The Son IS God. THe Holy Ghost IS God. They dont think that each is a part of God or an aspect of God, they think each is literally identical to God.
They also think that the father IS NOT the son, ie that each member of the trinity is a distinct entity.
This is impossible.

They decided at first vatican council in 1860 to explain this away by saying just what a couple posters have mentioned. They admit that it doesn't make sense and is mysterious, but they will not admit that it is obviously impossible because God is somehow immune to reason.
Here are couple telling excerpts from that decision:

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Hence all faithful Christians
are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith,
particularly if they have been condemned by the church; and furthermore they
are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.


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For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward
not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence,
but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.
Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.


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Basically saying the truth is known by them already, and that any philosophical conclusions which contradict what they say can be disregarded as obviously flawed. No surprise coming from the Vatican.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

The way I heard it explained, trinity is kinda like a triangle. There are three distinct corners, but they are inseperable from and simultaneous to each other.

edit: I should mention that no analogy will be perfect.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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The way I heard it explained, trinity is kinda like a triangle. There are three distinct corners, but they are inseperable from and simultaneous to each other.

edit: I should mention that no analogy will be perfect.

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A more perfect analogy would be claiming that each corner is the triangle itself.



Im sure many Christians do not infact believe in the impossible unity of the trinity, rather they believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost, are mere parts, aspects, or moods of God and not God himself. They are smart enough not to believe in the truth of an obvious contradiction.

However, this is not the what orthodox christians believe or what the official catholic church doctrine says.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Im sure many Christians do not infact believe in the impossible unity of the trinity, rather they believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost, are mere parts, aspects, or moods of God and not God himself. They are smart enough not to believe in the truth of an obvious contradiction.

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I don't see it as impossible. 1 ^ 3 = 1.

Another way to explain it:
"The Trinity doctrine holds to five distinct points: (1) There is only one God; (2) The Father of Jesus is God; (3) Jesus Christ is God; (4) The Holy Spirit is God; and (5) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct, and aware of each other and in relationship with each other. So God is a Tri-unity (Trinity), with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one in "echad", complex unity, similar to how you are one person possessing three distinct features of 1) thought, 2) word and 3) deed.

For example, you possess a mind which is capable of thought, a mouth which is capable of bringing forth a word and limbs which can do the deed, (carry out the physical actions) of the mind and the mouth. You can create in your mind the design for a flower pot, you can verbally say "I will create this flower pot" and then physically carry out the actions involved in getting the flower pot made. Those three individual elements are all self-contained in "YOU" - one "complex" person with three distinct features working in unison.

Now, to begin to understand the Trinity, apply those three distinct features to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit with reference to creation. In that context, the Father is the Thought behind the creation, the Son is the Word calling the creation forward and the Holy Spirit is the Deed making the Thought and the Word a reality. Together they form one complex God."
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ChristB...2/trinity.html

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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A more perfect analogy would be claiming that each corner is the triangle itself.


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Sierpinski?

Infinity is strange.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

Thankyou for posting something which agrees with what I said about the tri-unity doctrine. It however makes more irrelevant and deceptive analogies which attempt to conceal the contradiction.

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For example, you possess a mind which is capable of thought, a mouth which is capable of bringing forth a word and limbs which can do the deed, (carry out the physical actions) of the mind and the mouth. You can create in your mind the design for a flower pot, you can verbally say "I will create this flower pot" and then physically carry out the actions involved in getting the flower pot made. Those three individual elements are all self-contained in "YOU" - one "complex" person with three distinct features working in unison.


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Funny how they leave out the fatal claim about each element being identical to you, when they are making the 'illustrative' analogy.

If I were to claim a tri-unity of myself it would go like this. There is only one Bork. Bork's Mouth is Bork. Borks mind is Bork. and Borks limbs are Bork. Moreover, my mouth my mind and my limbs are all seperate and distinct.

Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me. So the analogy fails to solve the mystery. By the way if these analagies which attempt to make the contradiction pill easier to swallow actually are analagous then why do catholics claim that the tri-unity is a strict mystery and God is above reason when faced with this problem. The more intellectualy honest ones know that there is a contradiction here so in order to hold onto their beliefs they must let God not be limited by Logic. So apparently God could make could make a squirrel fatter than itself or 2+2 =5. The Pope agrees that there is a contradiction here. It appears however that the church is disguising it as something reasonable through the use of poor analogies.


This is the part I especially like, since it clearly states a set inconsistent impossibly true beliefs:

(1) There is only one God; (2) The Father of Jesus is God; (3) Jesus Christ is God; (4) The Holy Spirit is God; and (5) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct
If all those things are identical to God then they must be identical to each other, hence they are not seperate and distinct. But (5) says they are seperate and distinct, so we know that at least one of those statements is false.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me.

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If they're not you/yours, then what/who's are they?

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me.

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If they're not you/yours, then what/who's are they?

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They are parts of me. They belong to me, but they are not me.

Texas is a part of the USA, it belongs to the USA, but it is NOT the USA. Texas is not identical to the USA.

The problem comes from this important claim that each part of the triunity is identical to God, and that they are distinct.

A=G, B=G, C=G so A=B=C, but they claim that A, B, C are distinct, which means not identical. (Here I am using '=' to mean identical.)

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

This post is about personal belief, so here's mine.

Each part of the trinity is intimately connected to each other part. While one seperate part does not represent God in His entirety, each part is God because they are in one another. Yes, they are 3 seperate Person's, we just don't understand the intimacy they share.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

Another example: I can be a father, a son, and a brother all at the same time but I am still one person.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Another example: I can be a father, a son, and a brother all at the same time but I am still one person.

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Yes but then the father, the Son, and the brother are identical, ie they are not distinct men. They are one, man not 3.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

But those are three distinct roles or relationships. Yet they can exist within one person all at the same time. Me, the father, is the same as me, the son, is the same as me, the brother. Yet each role is distinct from the others.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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But those are three distinct roles or relationships. Yet they can exist within one person all at the same time. Me, the father, is the same as me, the son, is the same as me, the brother. Yet each role is distinct from the others.


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You are equivocating on the meaning of, a father, a son, and a brother. That is you are using it with two different meanings.

If you mean you the father as the ROLE you play then yes you do have three distinct roles but they are not identical to you. As Texas is not identical to the USA.

If you mean father, son, and brother to simply be different NAMES for you. Then you are one thing with three names. In this case the father the son, and the brother, are identical. Just like the pacific ocean and the largest ocean on earth are identical. They are not distinct things.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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If you mean you the father as the ROLE you play then yes you do have three distinct roles but they are not identical to you.

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I'm not all that well versed in Christian theology, but I don't think Christian doctrine says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are identical. If they were, why would there be any need for one over the other? If they are to be distinct, then they can't really be identical, can they? They each have their roles to play.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

The contradictions blow my mind. I don't understand why xians just don't accept that their beliefs are irrational and leave it at that.

Trying to make it sound logical/rational doesn't enhance the position at all, rather the opposite. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

Read the article linked in the Viruses of the Mind thread and you'll understand it perfectly well. Religions with crazy illogical irrational impossible tenets are actually selected for, not against.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Religions with crazy illogical irrational impossible tenets are actually selected for, not against.

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One of the worst things that could happen to a religion is to be 'almost believable'. That would bring it to close to being a legitimate object of doubt. Keeping a huge 'leap' between rationality and belief clarifies that "rationality doesn't apply here".

It's related to the rebel stunts teenagers pull, it's a way of expressing "your values don't apply to me."

luckyme

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Hence, orthodox christians believe in an impossible God. Hence, the God they believe in doesn't exist


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I started to answer this and decided to do some brief research on the net first to check my vocabulary. After just one search the shallowness of your post was so obvious I decided to post this instead. Much cyber-ink would be saved if people would learn of a tool called google. If you did a little research and then posted something serious you might have the makings of a worthwhile thread. I have no desire to spoon feed you that which is childishly simple to discover on your own.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

God is not a him. Stop giving "him" human characteristics, it is obnoxious.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

When do you think humans are going to realize that religion is made up and is mythology?

5 years? 10 years? 100 years?

Let's see if you guys can understand this concept:

Religion would NOT exist if you were not taught to believe these thoughts.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Religion would NOT exist if you were not taught to believe these thoughts.


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Neither would the multiplication table.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Religion would NOT exist if you were not taught to believe these thoughts.

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If this were the case, it should not exist at all. Do you see why?

Edit: Damn. NotReady beat me to it. nh.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Religion would NOT exist if you were not taught to believe these thoughts.

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For an interesting article on how the human brain is wired in such a way as to be especially susceptible to religion (basically, we are innately inclined to anthropomorphize and to see animate entities where there may be none), see Paul Bloom's article in December's The Atlantic Monthly.

The moral is that, while you might be able to kill specific religions by not teaching them, religion in general is a much tougher thing to get rid of.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

The multiplication table would still exist, it is a way to explain the physical laws around us.

Religion explains nothing.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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The multiplication table would still exist, it is a way to explain the physical laws around us.

Religion explains nothing.

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That's not the point.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

Then explain the point. I think you might have some difficulty.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

If we were talking about the person Bork who is subject to time, he could not have three moods at once. But because we are talking about an eternal being who is not subject to time, than yes we can say he has three moods at once.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Then explain the point. I think you might have some difficulty.

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No, actually it's fairly straightforward. You said that religion would not exist if people were not taught religious beliefs. This is obviously false, since at some point in the past (I hope you will agree) there were no religious beliefs. I.e. religion was invented, like the multiplication tables. Since there was a time before religion, and hence religious beliefs were not being taught, yet someone still invented it, and hence it now exists, your statement is false. QED.

Hope that helps.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction
 

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Religion explains nothing.

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That's an interesting position to take. It's ridiculous, but interesting.