Two Plus Two Newer Archives - Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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- - Unity and Trinity Contradiction (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=1148)

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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"No, this is wrong. Allegedly, they are each wholly God. Checkout the Catechism link in my OP."

They are wholly God because they are the same God. For example, we can have Bork in a good mood, a bad mood and an indifferent mood. Bork encompasses all three moods which are distinct, but they still make up Bork. If you wake up in a good mood one day, and a bad mood the other day, you have not changed the fact that you are Bork, the same Bork who is also the good mood Bork.

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No your analogy confuses me with my moods. Each mood is distinct. However, happy bork, sad bork, and indifferent bork, are not distinct entities or people. They are all one entity Bork.

They think the father IS God. The Son IS God. THe Holy Ghost IS God. They dont think that each is a part of God or an aspect of God, they think each is literally identical to God.
They also think that the father IS NOT the son, ie that each member of the trinity is a distinct entity.
This is impossible.

They decided at first vatican council in 1860 to explain this away by saying just what a couple posters have mentioned. They admit that it doesn't make sense and is mysterious, but they will not admit that it is obviously impossible because God is somehow immune to reason.
Here are couple telling excerpts from that decision:

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Hence all faithful Christians
are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith,
particularly if they have been condemned by the church; and furthermore they
are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.

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For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward
not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence,
but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.
Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.

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Basically saying the truth is known by them already, and that any philosophical conclusions which contradict what they say can be disregarded as obviously flawed. No surprise coming from the Vatican.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

The way I heard it explained, trinity is kinda like a triangle. There are three distinct corners, but they are inseperable from and simultaneous to each other.

edit: I should mention that no analogy will be perfect.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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The way I heard it explained, trinity is kinda like a triangle. There are three distinct corners, but they are inseperable from and simultaneous to each other.

edit: I should mention that no analogy will be perfect.

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A more perfect analogy would be claiming that each corner is the triangle itself.

Im sure many Christians do not infact believe in the impossible unity of the trinity, rather they believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost, are mere parts, aspects, or moods of God and not God himself. They are smart enough not to believe in the truth of an obvious contradiction.

However, this is not the what orthodox christians believe or what the official catholic church doctrine says.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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Im sure many Christians do not infact believe in the impossible unity of the trinity, rather they believe that the father, the son, and the holy ghost, are mere parts, aspects, or moods of God and not God himself. They are smart enough not to believe in the truth of an obvious contradiction.

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I don't see it as impossible. 1 ^ 3 = 1.

Another way to explain it:
"The Trinity doctrine holds to five distinct points: (1) There is only one God; (2) The Father of Jesus is God; (3) Jesus Christ is God; (4) The Holy Spirit is God; and (5) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct, and aware of each other and in relationship with each other. So God is a Tri-unity (Trinity), with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one in "echad", complex unity, similar to how you are one person possessing three distinct features of 1) thought, 2) word and 3) deed.

For example, you possess a mind which is capable of thought, a mouth which is capable of bringing forth a word and limbs which can do the deed, (carry out the physical actions) of the mind and the mouth. You can create in your mind the design for a flower pot, you can verbally say "I will create this flower pot" and then physically carry out the actions involved in getting the flower pot made. Those three individual elements are all self-contained in "YOU" - one "complex" person with three distinct features working in unison.

Now, to begin to understand the Trinity, apply those three distinct features to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit with reference to creation. In that context, the Father is the Thought behind the creation, the Son is the Word calling the creation forward and the Holy Spirit is the Deed making the Thought and the Word a reality. Together they form one complex God."
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ChristB...2/trinity.html

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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A more perfect analogy would be claiming that each corner is the triangle itself.

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Sierpinski?

Infinity is strange.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

Thankyou for posting something which agrees with what I said about the tri-unity doctrine. It however makes more irrelevant and deceptive analogies which attempt to conceal the contradiction.

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For example, you possess a mind which is capable of thought, a mouth which is capable of bringing forth a word and limbs which can do the deed, (carry out the physical actions) of the mind and the mouth. You can create in your mind the design for a flower pot, you can verbally say "I will create this flower pot" and then physically carry out the actions involved in getting the flower pot made. Those three individual elements are all self-contained in "YOU" - one "complex" person with three distinct features working in unison.

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Funny how they leave out the fatal claim about each element being identical to you, when they are making the 'illustrative' analogy.

If I were to claim a tri-unity of myself it would go like this. There is only one Bork. Bork's Mouth is Bork. Borks mind is Bork. and Borks limbs are Bork. Moreover, my mouth my mind and my limbs are all seperate and distinct.

Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me. So the analogy fails to solve the mystery. By the way if these analagies which attempt to make the contradiction pill easier to swallow actually are analagous then why do catholics claim that the tri-unity is a strict mystery and God is above reason when faced with this problem. The more intellectualy honest ones know that there is a contradiction here so in order to hold onto their beliefs they must let God not be limited by Logic. So apparently God could make could make a squirrel fatter than itself or 2+2 =5. The Pope agrees that there is a contradiction here. It appears however that the church is disguising it as something reasonable through the use of poor analogies.

This is the part I especially like, since it clearly states a set inconsistent impossibly true beliefs:

(1) There is only one God; (2) The Father of Jesus is God; (3) Jesus Christ is God; (4) The Holy Spirit is God; and (5) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct
If all those things are identical to God then they must be identical to each other, hence they are not seperate and distinct. But (5) says they are seperate and distinct, so we know that at least one of those statements is false.

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me.

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If they're not you/yours, then what/who's are they?

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

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Clearly, My mind is not me, My mouth is not me, My limbs are not me.

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If they're not you/yours, then what/who's are they?

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They are parts of me. They belong to me, but they are not me.

Texas is a part of the USA, it belongs to the USA, but it is NOT the USA. Texas is not identical to the USA.

The problem comes from this important claim that each part of the triunity is identical to God, and that they are distinct.

A=G, B=G, C=G so A=B=C, but they claim that A, B, C are distinct, which means not identical. (Here I am using '=' to mean identical.)

Re: Unity and Trinity Contradiction

This post is about personal belief, so here's mine.

Each part of the trinity is intimately connected to each other part. While one seperate part does not represent God in His entirety, each part is God because they are in one another. Yes, they are 3 seperate Person's, we just don't understand the intimacy they share.