Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

sudic · #1 01-10-2006, 09:26 PM

Hey All!

Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

BB is about 80/17, Buttton had only been in for a few hands and had already been caught trying to steal with rags a couple of times.

Thanks for all help!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) (6 handed) link

MP ($7.65)
Hero ($18.30)
Button ($15.35)
SB ($31.75)
BB ($30.15)
UTG ($12.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, Button calls $0.50, 1 folds, BB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50.

Flop: ($3.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $4.00, BB calls $4.00, Hero calls $4.00.

Turn: ($15.10) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button raises all-in ($10.35), BB calls $10.35, Hero raises all-in ($13.30), BB calls $2.95.

River: ($52.05) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $52.05.

epdaws · #2 01-10-2006, 09:34 PM

First of all, never min-raise again. Ever. It made me spew my homemade Bailey's all over the monitor when I saw that.

There are plenty of occasions where pushing all in on a draw is optimal, but this situation is not one of them, and here's a breakdown:

1) You've got one card to come and, ostensibly, 12 outs. You're roughly a 3:1 dog, and you've got to put your last $13 in to win $38, so you're getting just less than 3:1. This play is marginally -expected value.

2) When you put all your money in on a draw, it's best to be the first one in to the middle, so you gain folding equity. For example, you flop an open-ended straight flush draw. You feel safe in counting 15 outs, so you're about 57 percent to hit a winning hand. Your opponent is showing aggression. By pushing all in, you make a +expected value play because he's going to fold a lot of the time, and you'll take down the pot as is, and when he does call, you're roughly a coin flip to win anyway.

3) Calling all in on a draw with one to come just sucks. As the Great One once said, "Donkeys Alwasy Draw."

Hope that helps.

mason55 · #3 01-10-2006, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Frequently. Pot odds might require you to. Often you do it as a semi-bluff. I think you must have some fundamental mis-understanding of poker to ask that question.

epdaws · #4 01-10-2006, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you must have some fundamental mis-understanding of poker to ask that question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, not to be a jerk, but, ding.

hacker59 · #5 01-10-2006, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Frequently. Pot odds might require you to. Often you do it as a semi-bluff. I think you must have some fundamental mis-understanding of poker to ask that question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a regular poster here and only an occasional lurker (benefited greatly from forums when learning 6-max limit.) But don't you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of 2+2? He asked a question. Given the limits he's playing, it's safe to assume he legitimately need an answer. While you should be commended for providing him with one, is the condescending remark necessary? If the question is beneath you to answer, don't.

mason55 · #6 01-10-2006, 11:18 PM

This forum is for explaining more advanced concepts than pot odds. If that's truly where he is in his poker development (and we were all there at one point) then this is the wrong place for the question.

It appears that he must have a semi-decent idea that there are books out there explaining basic poker concepts. I am assuming he has read at least one of these books. Thus there is a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere.

Not trying to be condescending, trying to be truthful. No one on these forums is going to sugar coat anything for anyone. If people can't handle being told the straight truth then 2p2 is not the place for them.

Komodo · #7 01-10-2006, 11:46 PM

I could go all-in, but I dont like to call an all-in here.

Mathemagician · #8 01-11-2006, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This forum is for explaining more advanced concepts than pot odds. If that's truly where he is in his poker development (and we were all there at one point) then this is the wrong place for the question.

...

Not trying to be condescending, trying to be truthful. No one on these forums is going to sugar coat anything for anyone. If people can't handle being told the straight truth then 2p2 is not the place for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you truly are in the place in your poker development that your responses indicate, perhaps you should be posting in the High Stakes forum. Of course, maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding about poker, too.

M

mason55 · #9 01-11-2006, 02:20 AM

Fine, fill the forum up with questions that are answered in any poker book ever written. I really don't give a [censored].

Mathemagician · #10 01-11-2006, 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fine, fill the forum up with questions that are answered in any poker book ever written. I really don't give a [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Beats filling it up with this kind of post. It's real simple. If you don't like a topic, just ignore it and move move on. There is no need to be rude to someone with a genuine question.

M