Wrap, on two-flush board

[Cezar]

I'm giving small stakes PLO another spin. This sort of situation is probably routine for a good player. Well, I guess I'm not that good.

Party Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $29.20
UTG+1: $25.25
MP1: $58.63
MP2: $51.60
CO: $28.55
Button: $24.50
SB: $6.31
Hero: $26

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1.35</font>, SB calls, Cezar24 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Button was pretty quiet until now, so the standard operating procedure is to put him on aces. I guess this is question number one - should I be trying to stack off aces with this hand ?

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5.65, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $5.4</font>

JQ is perfect for my hand, but I'm still not sure how to proceed. Normally, I would check-raise the continuation bet. But if the Villain is suited in hearts, I'm not prying him off this pot, and I am way behind. MP1 could decide to stick around too.

So what is the play here ? Raise, and pray everybody folds. Call and see if I catch a straight on the turn, or just fold and move on.

[DrMagic]

You have 4 clean nut outs and 5 non-nut straight outs so this isn't a great spot to get much money in. If this board was rainbow I'm potting it.

[BobAllinSki]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 4 clean nut outs and 5 non-nut straight outs so this isn't a great spot to get much money in. If this board was rainbow I'm potting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 7 nut outs (2*8, 2*9, 3*A), a further 5 non nut straight outs that dont complete the flush (3*10 &amp; 2*K) and 4 more heart outs that are still worth a little in the times you run into 2 pair etc.

Given the stacks I'd say a push is in order, I'd say you have enough fold equity to make it worth while, with deeper money I'd just call and see what the turn brings.

[sahaguje]

[ QUOTE ]


Button was pretty quiet until now, so the standard operating procedure is to put him on aces. I guess this is question number one - should I be trying to stack off aces with this hand ?


[/ QUOTE ]

1. You should not put a button raise on aces. Do that mostly for EP raises (but with great caution), and reraises in all positions.

2. If you put him on aces this is a bad spot to stack him off because :

a. You do not have a pair, that means you have to fill up to beat him, so it is not a "cracking aces" situation, but just a draw vs. made hand one.

b. He has increased chance to call you with an overpair+nut flush draw.

That does not mean you should fold. But your thinking process is flawed if you think : "he must have aces, so I have to call", both parts of the sentence are wrong.

By the way, I think the easiest way to think, against a single opponent, with a good-but-not-great straight draw is : rainbow flop, I push [edit : if the money is shallow enough to commit most of your or his stack], otherwise I fold (or call if I have position with a specific read that my opponent will often check 2 pairs, overpairs and small sets on turn and/or call a pot bet if I fill up).

++

[wazz]

Nooooooooo pushing, no pushing, no pushing here, it's horrible. 1st of all preflop is quite bad, this isn't a great hand to stack aces with, you're OOP in both absolute terms and relative to the raiser, your hand isn't even suited to an ace, and the best flop you can see (JQ) doesn't even give you all the nut outs.

On the flop: The button's likely range has you absolutely screwed. AAhKhx, KKhQTh, ThJQKh, etc etc. You are out of position and semi-sandwiched. You only know which outs give you the nuts and don't know whether they helped him and he is freerolling you on the turn if you hit your hand. If you hit a black ace on the turn it could give him top set+NFD and give him 15+ outs worth of redraws, same with a king but now you have doubt as to whether you have the best hand anyway. This is an automatic fold on the flop. The fact that this player is 'pretty quiet up to now' just adds to this.

'The straight draw is the flush draw's best friend.'

[BobAllinSki]

[ QUOTE ]
The button's likely range has you absolutely screwed. AAhKhx, KKhQTh, ThJQKh, etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think his range is anywhere near that tight, if it includes AAxx KKxx and other hands that cbet but have to fold to your raise I think a push is in order, it all depends on how often you think villain is cbetting here. I really dont like a call as I think this hand needs fold equity to continue as most of the outs a dirty but there is a lot of them.

The post was posed as a playing against aces hand, and against likely aces I like the push, not to crack them but to push them off. Pre-flop I aggree is quiet bad as your not that likely flop this good and it doesnt get much better than this

[DrMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 4 clean nut outs and 5 non-nut straight outs so this isn't a great spot to get much money in. If this board was rainbow I'm potting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 7 nut outs (2*8, 2*9, 3*A), a further 5 non nut straight outs that dont complete the flush (3*10 &amp; 2*K) and 4 more heart outs that are still worth a little in the times you run into 2 pair etc.

Given the stacks I'd say a push is in order, I'd say you have enough fold equity to make it worth while, with deeper money I'd just call and see what the turn brings.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops my bad [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. I would still prob fold this spot.

[wazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think his range is anywhere near that tight, if it includes AAxx KKxx and other hands that cbet but have to fold to your raise I think a push is in order, it all depends on how often you think villain is cbetting here. I really dont like a call as I think this hand needs fold equity to continue as most of the outs a dirty but there is a lot of them.

The post was posed as a playing against aces hand, and against likely aces I like the push, not to crack them but to push them off.

[/ QUOTE ]

F*ck me did you see the other people in the hand? His range doesn't have to be anywhere near this tight to have you screwed, all your opponents need is one pair and one flush draw between them. Fold &gt; call &gt; raise.

[BobAllinSki]

Just playing with 2 dimes and noticed that

KKhQTh &amp; ThJQKh

are not possible as you hold the Th, thats an aspect of hand analsysis I've not really looked into before but against solid opponents it does strengthen your hand slightly as these combo draws are the main ones that really crush your hand.

Against AAxx with hearts he is still 45% and AAhKhx your 40%, notgreat but of the AA hands thats as bad as it gets. About the worst I can come up with is 9TKhAh with 37%. Allthough the following one destroyed my faith in twodimes somewhat Apparently the same draw + flush freeroll is a dog!

You dont need a huge amount of fold equity for pushing here to be profitable, even against a solid opponent I'd expect AAxx of hearts to be the majority of there calling range.

[wazz]

[ QUOTE ]
Just playing with 2 dimes and noticed that

KKhQTh &amp; ThJQKh

are not possible as you hold the Th, thats an aspect of hand analsysis I've not really looked into before but against solid opponents it does strengthen your hand slightly as these combo draws are the main ones that really crush your hand.

Against AAxx with hearts he is still 45% and AAhKhx your 40%, notgreat but of the AA hands thats as bad as it gets. About the worst I can come up with is 9TKhAh with 37%. Allthough the following one destroyed my faith in twodimes somewhat Apparently the same draw + flush freeroll is a dog!

You dont need a huge amount of fold equity for pushing here to be profitable, even against a solid opponent I'd expect AAxx of hearts to be the majority of there calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're an idiot. Learn how to use twodimes properly