doomed to never be much good at poker

[johnzzz]

I just read this at
www.playwinningpoker.com/

Suppose playing Texas Holdem you are under the gun with a marginal hand like KJo. What should you do? Some learning players would immediately consult their starting hand charts, either literally or in their memory, and then decide what action to take. Unfortunately, rigid adherence to artificial charts is the root of ruin of many people who might otherwise become quite good poker players. A lot of these players may in fact become winning players, especially in rake games where the house takes its cut from the pot rather than equally from each player, but I suggest most players relying on starting hand charts are either doomed to never be much good at poker, or will end up as merely mediocre.

I was wondering what you guys think about it?

[SocalHoldEem]

True, but awful example. Playing KJo from UTG in ring is always bad. You steal or you are up against a better hand. What's important is knowing when to 3 bet loosely, steal loosely, steal tightly. The closer you are to the button, the more you can vary.

[skillzilla]

knowing why you dont play KJo UTG is better than knowing that you dont play KJo UTG

[wazz]

Go on then skillz, educate us.

[OrianasDaad]

Edit: The question wasn't whether or not to play KJo UTG, it was whether or not a player who plays from a chart is doomed to "never be much good at poker".

Solid winning play has to start somewhere.

Badger's advice seems to be focused on players who already play well post-flop. If you already play very well post-flop, then it's very likely that you don't need a chart. You are already making decisions based less on your cards, and more on the tendancies of your opponents.

However, if you are already using a chart, then his advice isn't very good. A chart is useful if you aren't confident in your post-flop play, because you are more likely to be getting into situations where your post-flop decisions are easy to make.

His condemnation that players who use a starting hand chart are doomed to mediocrity is false. The single biggest mistake a player can make is to play bad starting cards, and a chart practically eliminates this - a very valuable tool for a learning player. Naturally, once you get more confident in your post-flop skills, you'll want to deviate from the chart to take more advantage of your opponents mistakes.

Badger's advice in this regard isn't so good, and strikes me of being a bit macho, as in I don't need no stinkin' chart, cause I'm better than you. While these are my words, this is the impression I get.

Edit: Knowing "why" playing KJo (and related hands) UTG is generally bad is important, but exceedingly expensive for a new player. Use a chart, and learn "why" it's bad. It's not impossible to do both.

Bottom line, though. If you aren't willing to learn "why", then you are doomed to never be much good at poker.

[reddred]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: The question wasn't whether or not to play KJo UTG, it was whether or not a player who plays from a chart is doomed to "never be much good at poker".

Solid winning play has to start somewhere.

Badger's advice seems to be focused on players who already play well post-flop. If you already play very well post-flop, then it's very likely that you don't need a chart. You are already making decisions based less on your cards, and more on the tendancies of your opponents.

However, if you are already using a chart, then his advice isn't very good. A chart is useful if you aren't confident in your post-flop play, because you are more likely to be getting into situations where your post-flop decisions are easy to make.

His condemnation that players who use a starting hand chart are doomed to mediocrity is false. The single biggest mistake a player can make is to play bad starting cards, and a chart practically eliminates this - a very valuable tool for a learning player. Naturally, once you get more confident in your post-flop skills, you'll want to deviate from the chart to take more advantage of your opponents mistakes.

Badger's advice in this regard isn't so good, and strikes me of being a bit macho, as in I don't need no stinkin' chart, cause I'm better than you. While these are my words, this is the impression I get.

Edit: Knowing "why" playing KJo (and related hands) UTG is generally bad is important, but exceedingly expensive for a new player. Use a chart, and learn "why" it's bad. It's not impossible to do both.

Bottom line, though. If you aren't willing to learn "why", then you are doomed to never be much good at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this posters reply. Starting hand charts are valuable tools for beginners. They are not meant to adhered to indefinitely, but you have to earn your right to deviate from the chart by putting in the hours and hands, and showing a positive winrate at your current level. You have to first prove to yourself that you can win playing by the book b/c there will be many of times during your poker career (when downswings hit, or confidence is low, etc) when it will be beneficial to revert back to by the book to get yourself on track. Tight is a great place to start in poker until you get to the point where you are playing opponents instead of your cards.

[Acein8ter]

KJo depends... in a loose/passive game may play. In a tight/agg game, fold it. As mentioned, charts are a good tool for beginning players. You need to determine what type of players are on your table, evaluate and go from there. Some things you can get away with, and some things you can't.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but awful example. Playing KJo from UTG in ring is always bad.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
You steal

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome result for us!

[ QUOTE ]
you are up against a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, yeah - that's why we don't always play it, but we certainly don't have to always fold it, either.


Careful with you language as well. UTG can mean on the button in a 3 handed game! Certainly, you can probably play KJ UTG in this setting.
-James

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
You steal or you are up against a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

We must be playing a different kind of Texas Holdem, because in the games I play when I raise with AK UTG almost nobody folds JT/QJ/KT. I'm still folding KJo UTG 9 or 10 handed almost always, but raising it UTG 7 or 8 handed isn't bad at all I don't think.