2nd pair no kicker 5-handed

[Ampelmann]

I didn't have many hands with any player, but CO seemed to be a TAG (he definitely was tight).

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.60 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

I thought that an aggressive player could bet many hands here. Since no one bet it's not impossible that there is no K around and a raise might force a better 9 out.

Thoughts?

[kerowo]

It's probably not the worst play, but what do you do if he calls? You can't lead the turn with a 3 kicker and you probably can't call his inevitable bet. Do this a lot; raise the flop out of position c/f the turn and soon you will have people taking shots at you all the time. That pots probably not big enough to justify the risk. Especially if there are any passive calling stations at your table in the hand.

[Fantam]

You are in good shape if CO is betting a draw and everyone else folds.

However, I think that I would have preferred a stronger hand to make this play. Perhaps top pair with a weak kicker or middle pair with a good kicker.

Edit: Also (as Kerowo mentioned) you will be OOP to the CO for the rest of the hand. It would have been a lot easier to play the rest of the hand if you had been on the button.

[Crackpot]

Given our position, leading out on the flop is your best play here I think.
Once you've decided to check the flop though, raising a bet by CO is probably a good choice. There is no reason to believe MP1 or MP3 have anything, since they didn't bet out, so a raise in this spot will probably knock them out. Also, there is a great chance we're also ahead of CO at this point. What is he betting with that he wouldn't raise PF as a TAG? The only possibilities I see other than a bluff are: low to mid pocket pair, KT suited or off, KJo, or Ax of hearts. I like our chances against this range.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
Given our position, leading out on the flop is your best play here I think.
Once you've decided to check the flop though, raising a bet by CO is probably a good choice. There is no reason to believe MP1 or MP3 have anything, since they didn't bet out, so a raise in this spot will probably knock them out. Also, there is a great chance we're also ahead of CO at this point. What is he betting with that he wouldn't raise PF as a TAG? The only possibilities I see other than a bluff are: low to mid pocket pair, KT suited or off, KJo, or Ax of hearts. I like our chances against this range.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do if he calls? What is your turn plan?

[Ampelmann]

[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the worst play, but what do you do if he calls?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you discovered one of my biggest leaks -- not always, but too often I have no plan for the rest of the hand.

Wouldn't we just have to lead the turn? Or should we check hoping he takes a free card?

[Romulus141]

I'm not a huge fan of this play. With five players in the pot, which isn't that big anyway, I'm wary, because one of them probably has a king or nine with a better kicker. Also, there are two hearts, so even if we are ahead, we may have to dodge eleven different heart cards, some other overs to our nine, etc.

I play 0.25/0.50 too (at Pokerstars), and I've seen many a strange slowplay from the fish lately. I've seen them call down with top pair or MPGK quite a lot, even call down with straight and NOT bet/raise on the river. So, even if our TAG friend doesn't have a hand, if any one of the other three fish call, we're probably screwed.

You're also tied to betting out on the turn by doing this. If a bad card falls, or you're raised, you'll be quite unhappy.

If you want to know where you stand, you're better with betting out, and making that the only money you invest in the pot unless you improve.

With the check method, I can't call, because I'm probably drawing to 2-pair or trips, but one of our two-pair outs is tainted due to the flush draw, and our trips draw might be tainted because someone else might hold a nine with a better kicker. I'm putting us on about 3.25 or so outs here. The pot's small, we can't be sure all the fish will fold, the TAG could have something, so I think we're in a bad situation here.

I'd probably advocate check/fold here. If you would have had the best hand, eh, that's poker. Pot isn't big enough to get that upset about it IMO.

EDIT: Also, just to add, if a TAG-like player limps, it usually means one of four hands: suited connectors, suited ace with a low kicker, two cards higher than ten that aren't strong enough to raise multi-way (TJo, QTo, KTo, etc.), or a low-middle pocket pair. A lot of these hands are capable of hitting this flop. I'm actually more likely to give the TAG credit here than if he raised pre-flop. He could just be using position to bluff, but with what he'd limp with, hitting that nine, king, or having a flush/straight draw is all likely.

[KingOtter]

I do this more in short-handed play than in full-ring. Full ring has more non-betting passives even when they hit the flop.

Turn is usually check/fold, and if I make it to the river I bet again... sometimes.

KO

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the worst play, but what do you do if he calls?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you discovered one of my biggest leaks -- not always, but too often I have no plan for the rest of the hand.

Wouldn't we just have to lead the turn? Or should we check hoping he takes a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your gonna c/r the flop you really need to be leading the turn if heads up. The river will be tricky if he calls which brings up the question of do you really want to invest 2 or 3 BB's OOP with a hand this weak in a pot this size. Do you really want to invest 1 BB on the flop against 4 others. I am not saying the check/raise is bad i am just saying you are in a tough spot and it is a marginal play against a sizeable field. I personally think this is close between check/folding and check/raising but if you do check/raise and limit the field you really need to be betting the turn.

[Crackpot]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if he calls? What is your turn plan?

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If villian would have 3-bet the flop, we have an easy fold. If he calls the check raise, we have to bet the turn every time.
If we were to check raise the flop, then check the turn, we are putting ourselves in a tough position. It's certainly possible villian would check behind, which would be ok, but what if he bets?
He should know we could play any two cards this way. Suppose villian thinks we are on a straight or flush draw here. There is a good chance he would bet the turn in this case with many hands we could beat(low/mid pocket pair, Ax hearts), and we would be forced to fold. That would be a big error on our part.
So, given a check raise on the flop we have to bet the turn 100% of the time. If villian calls our turn bet, I probably check/call the river.

Having said all that, I still say leading out on the flop is the best play here.