Minraising pre flop. WHY I don't think it's all-that-bad!

[Mik1w]

Here's my case.

The reason to do this is to build a pot. I would plan on doing this as an alternative to calling when I will be at an advantage to those limpers with odds to play post flop with a large pot, for example:

1. I have a great position, dealer or cut off, and can play much more precisely
2. I have a hand which does well in big pots, suited connectors, pocket pairs (Im giving myself odds for a set with the minraise, and this inflated pot will help me get paid off when I hit the set)

So, how does it work to my advantage if they have odds to call? surely then their call is profitable and my raise not. This reasoning neglects the fact that they are making fundemental theroum of poker mistakes by calling in the first place. If they'd have known I was going to raise, ie. if they are after me to act and have to play 2*BB to see the flop, many would have folded.. this makes their call of my raise good, but their limp before my raise unprofitable. ,but how could they know?

It might get even more unprofitable for them being dragged into a multiway pot now where I have better position and better cards suited to a large pot.

Im going to start this as an experiment and see how it goes. In the meantime, does anyone have any arguments that make my reasoning bad?

[Jamougha]

1) It is a freaking annoying nuisance and wastes everybody's time.

2) If you have good cards you want to charge people to stick around and outdraw you, not give them correct odds. Basic poker.

3) If you have bad cards you want them to go away.

[keikiwai]

FWIW, I've seen lags use the minraise to their advantage.

They'll basically minraise everytime someone raises, and they cue in on whether to be aggressive or not on the next street by whether they get re-raised. It's obviously an exploitable strategy, but I've seen it work at some tables.

Of course these same lags will let themselves get stacked w/ an overpair if you keep minraising back at them [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

LAGS only got a small stack left, but that's because I just stacked him a few hands back, and he's tilted some of his rebuy away already.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $16.58
UTG+1: $37.79
CO: $62
Button: $100.03
SB: $39.45
keikiwai: $46.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) keikiwai is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $0.75</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($2.75, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">keikiwai bets $3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $6</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $9.58</font>, keikiwai calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($33.91, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $33.91)


River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($33.91, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $33.91)


Results:
Final pot: $33.91
<font color="#ffffff">keikiwai shows Ah Ad </font>
<font color="#ffffff">UTG doesn't show 6s Qh </font>

[Mik1w]

1. doesnt matter

2. they have odds, but my whole point was they're still, pre flop, paying 2*bb on a hand they wouldn't have limped with if they had to pay 2*bb all at once to do. they're being "dragged in", which makes their first call a mistake.

3. I wouldnt do it with bad cards, I'd do it with cards that play well in a big pot.

To me, given that everyone who limps now calls (as they have odds), its effectively doubling the blinds at my will when I have an advantage. Raising a pot size doesn't have this effect.

[Mik1w]

keikiwai thanks, although I'm talking exclusively about pre-flop.

[ajmargarine]

I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

[RubbleRobble]

OP: here is the reason why your OP logic doesnt work. a raise with a hand that does well in multiway pot is a very important weapon in limit hold em. this is because there is a betting limit, which means that you dont have all that much time to get your opponents to get their money in. another result of the betting limit is that if the pot is too small to warrent a call from them (from their perspective-- it depends on the cards they have at the time). Thus a PF raise makes the pot bigger, and lets you price yourself (or them) into the pot when you get a favorable flop.

In NLHE, however, we have a concept known as implied odds. if you hit a flop you like, you have access to their entire stack already, its not as important to make the pot big enough to hook them. you hook by betting an amount you think they will call.

Plus at NLHE players sit with 100 bet stacks, so the difference between a 5 way 5 bet stack and a 5 way 10 bet stack is not very significant.

[keikiwai]

I love minraisers postflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
keikiwai: $24.65
UTG+1: $39.98
CO: $38.14
Button: $62.35
SB: $101.13
BB: $38.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) keikiwai is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
keikiwai calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $1.1</font>, 4 folds, keikiwai calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($2.55, 2 players)
keikiwai checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $2.45</font>, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $9.56</font>, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises all-in $17.55</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($49.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $49.65)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($49.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $49.65)


Results:
Final pot: $49.65
<font color="#ffffff">UTG+1 shows Ad Jd </font>
<font color="#ffffff">keikiwai shows Qh Js </font>

Yes it's one screwed up open limp / call on my part, but my implied odds were huge [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Mik1w]

you must love variance..

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
you must love variance..

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't, then you do not understand it.