DN loses respect for Raymer

[DesertCat]

olivert,

The Chinese economy, while growing fast, is barely larger than Italy, France or UK's economy. It's about one sixth of the U.S GDP. You need to focus on the absolute buying power, not the number of dirt poor peasants still manually farming small plots in the country side. You don't hear the WPT trying to win the "Battle for Italy" do you?

China may someday be very important in the poker world, but it's many years away. Meanwhile the WPT is doing everything they can to be less relevant in a group of countries that represent about ten times China's buying power.

[olivert]

[ QUOTE ]
olivert,

The Chinese economy, while growing fast, is barely larger than Italy, France or UK's economy. It's about one sixth of the U.S GDP. You need to focus on the absolute buying power, not the number of dirt poor peasants still manually farming small plots in the country side. You don't hear the WPT trying to win the "Battle for Italy" do you?

China may someday be very important in the poker world, but it's many years away. Meanwhile the WPT is doing everything they can to be less relevant in a group of countries that represent about ten times China's buying power.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "Battle for Italy" was over before it started.

The Italian government has a state-run national gaming MONOPOLY and the Italian government wants to keep it that way.

The likes of bwin/OnGame (EuroPoker.com/PokerRoom.com) is trying to defy the Italian government by operating out of Gibraltar.

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Germany is another case where the government is moving quickly to crack down on online gaming businesses operating out of Gibraltar and the Isle of Man.

Germany also has a state-run gaming monopoly named Oddset, and the German government want to maintain that state-run gaming monopoly until it is ready to issue concession licenses to privately-owned competitors.

Read my recent article on the recent crackdown by the government of the former East German state of Saxony on bwin:

http://pokerbiz411.com/2006/08/10/germanbwin.aspx

The German state of Bavaria is also moving to crack down on bwin, by ordering bwin to shut down its 41 online betting kiosks located in and around Munich, according to published reports in the German media.

--

I still maintain that anyone who can obtain a monopoly to operate online poker in Mainland China WILL control the global online and TV poker industries by the year 2015.

WPTE is particular has started executing its "China" strategy with its allies (MGM MIRAGE, the Ho Family), while the likes of Harrah's, ESPN, and NewsCorp are too busy fighting among themselves.

[dereeekho]

At the moment, I'm in Hong Kong. From what I have observed, there is almost a zero presence in terms of online poker. So far, I have seen one Texas Hold'em-related item for sale in a shop so far and zero television coverage. In addition, I have only seen one poker book in 5 bookstores that I've visited (Michael Craig's The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King).

As for Macau, I will be heading over in the weekend and will see if their casinos spread any form of poker. As far as I know, Baccarat is the dominant form of gambling (in terms of income for casino). I think the Sands Macau (run by the people who run the Venetian) has opened and the Wynn Macau will open in a two weeks (September 9th, I think).

[olivert]

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment, I'm in Hong Kong. From what I have observed, there is almost a zero presence in terms of online poker. So far, I have seen one Texas Hold'em-related item for sale in a shop so far and zero television coverage. In addition, I have only seen one poker book in 5 bookstores that I've visited (Michael Craig's The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King).

As for Macau, I will be heading over in the weekend and will see if their casinos spread any form of poker. As far as I know, Baccarat is the dominant form of gambling (in terms of income for casino). I think the Sands Macau (run by the people who run the Venetian) has opened and the Wynn Macau will open in a two weeks (September 9th, I think).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hong Kong is another market where the Hong Kong Jockey Club (HKJC) is struggling to maintain its government-sanctioned gaming monopoly.

While the Hong Kong legislature has passed a law outlawing anyone in Hong Kong from wagering online with any other entity besides the Hong Kong Jockey Club, the law is unenforceable because 1) the Hong Kong government does NOT have censorship control over Internet traffic in and out of Hong Kong, and 2) offshore online gaming sites such as DrHo888.com had been advertising in Hong Kong before the Hong Kong legislature enacted the law in a belated attempt to protect the Hong Kong Jockey Club monopoly.

As for Macau, the gaming law there currently does NOT permit Texas Hold'em to be spread. Stud Poker, 5 Card Poker, and 13-card poker (Chinese Poker) are allowed, as is the "3 Card Poker" table game.

The American-owned mega resort casinos in Macau will have to lobby the Macau Gaming Commission to approve Texas Hold'em before Texas Hold'em can be spread.

I expect MGM Grand Macau and WPTE to apply to the Macau Gaming Commission for permission to spread Texas Hold'em and the "WPT ALL-IN Hold'em" table game prior to the first WPT event to be held at the MGM Grand Macau, which I expect to take place in 2008.

What you will witness in Macau this weekend is the "calm before the storm".

The Wynn Macau, which has a hotel that looks like Wynn Las Vegas with a dancing water fountain in front of the building that looks like the fountain in front of the Bellagio, will open SEPTEMBER 5TH.

[LetsGetItOn]

[ QUOTE ]

Pansy is a 50% partner in MGM Grand Macau, while Angela runs the offshore online gaming site DrHo888.com.


[/ QUOTE ]

While not being able to offer anything informative or somewhat knowledgable to this thread.
Dr Ho and Pansy lol.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm just amazed that somebody can be so gung-ho against the position we are taking, without being aligned with the WPT.



[/ QUOTE ]

Some of us are "gung-ho" against the position you are taking even though we are not only NOT aligned with the WPT, but also that we agree WPT's policies are both bad for the players' interests as well as the long-term prosperity of the poker industry in general.

The reason is because some of us recognize the right of the WPT to conduct their business however they want, regardless of how poorly, or whether they are the only organization offering big, open, televised tournaments.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure we disagree here ... perhaps more in the way you said it. We both agree that an answer contains all sorts of boilerplate objections and pleadings, many of which ultimately won't have anything to do with the action. Sort of the kitchen sink approach.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that was my point. It follows that just because online poker is mentioned in the answer doesn't mean that it will have anything to do with the action.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But the fact that it was mentioned in the answer doesn't mean much.

[ QUOTE ]
The defendants' attorneys -- Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher -- are an AmLaw 100 law firm ... they are the 14th largest law firm in the US by some measures. The average annual compensation to partners exceeds 1 million per year. I figure that the lowest hourly rate that an associate in that firm charges is $200 per hour. The senior partners rates are probably in the $400 - $500 per hour rate. There is also another law firm involved. A total of 4 lawyers signed the Answer. This being NVG, I am guessing you have the following:

Intial meeting with WPTE - 8 hours
Subsequent meetings and phone calls - 20 hours
Reading and analysing the Complaint - 20 hours
Internal meetings to discuss the Complaint with multiple attorneys involved - 40 man hours
Legal research on the issues, including drafting of memoranda - 40 man hours
Drafing, revising and finalizing the Answer - 40 hours
Miscellaneous meetings, phone calls, etc. - 10 hours

[/ QUOTE ]


I know big firms often overbill their clients, but 80 hours to read and discuss the complaint and make phone calls, and another 40 hours to draft an answer is kind of insane. That's 120 hours to draft an answer -- a full month of billing for one person, to do what would take me no more than a couple days. (I've actually never spent anywhere near two full days on an answer before, but this one is probably more complicated than most. I haven't looked at the complaint.)

[homeslice]

[ QUOTE ]


I know big firms often overbill their clients, but 80 hours to read and discuss the complaint and make phone calls, and another 40 hours to draft an answer is kind of insane. That's 120 hours to draft an answer -- a full month of billing for one person, to do what would take me no more than a couple days. (I've actually never spent anywhere near two full days on an answer before, but this one is probably more complicated than most. I haven't looked at the complaint.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why lawyers suc! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[NCAces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure we disagree here ... perhaps more in the way you said it. We both agree that an answer contains all sorts of boilerplate objections and pleadings, many of which ultimately won't have anything to do with the action. Sort of the kitchen sink approach.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that was my point. It follows that just because online poker is mentioned in the answer doesn't mean that it will have anything to do with the action.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But the fact that it was mentioned in the answer doesn't mean much.

[ QUOTE ]
The defendants' attorneys -- Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher -- are an AmLaw 100 law firm ... they are the 14th largest law firm in the US by some measures. The average annual compensation to partners exceeds 1 million per year. I figure that the lowest hourly rate that an associate in that firm charges is $200 per hour. The senior partners rates are probably in the $400 - $500 per hour rate. There is also another law firm involved. A total of 4 lawyers signed the Answer. This being NVG, I am guessing you have the following:

Intial meeting with WPTE - 8 hours
Subsequent meetings and phone calls - 20 hours
Reading and analysing the Complaint - 20 hours
Internal meetings to discuss the Complaint with multiple attorneys involved - 40 man hours
Legal research on the issues, including drafting of memoranda - 40 man hours
Drafing, revising and finalizing the Answer - 40 hours
Miscellaneous meetings, phone calls, etc. - 10 hours

[/ QUOTE ]


I know big firms often overbill their clients, but 80 hours to read and discuss the complaint and make phone calls, and another 40 hours to draft an answer is kind of insane. That's 120 hours to draft an answer -- a full month of billing for one person, to do what would take me no more than a couple days. (I've actually never spent anywhere near two full days on an answer before, but this one is probably more complicated than most. I haven't looked at the complaint.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that is insane ... it isn't as if they are responding to a run of the mill auto case or tort action. This is a novel claim that involves some of the trickier areas of law.

Someone has to tear apart the Complaint, paragraph by paragraph, count by count. Then you have to meet with the client to dicsuss what all is meant by the allegations that are made. Assuming they aren't general counsel for WPTE, they have to understand the corporate structure of the WPTE and exam all the contracts with all the casinos, and all the contracts with the Discovery channel, and all other contracts that they have that might impact the release issue. In this case, they did research on Full Tilt and the princiapls of that company, and then I am sure did a ton of investigation of the 7 plaintiffs. Facts have to be tracked down and checked. Hell, someone probably had to sit down and research the poker industry and determine the extent to which there are big-buy tournaments, etc.

Then all the issues of law have to be researched and discussed. You have the anti-trust allegations, you have contract issues with the release, and I am not sure what area of law the speed of the blinds falls under [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. I am sure there were issues of venue, etc. Then the associates have to write memoranda of law on all these issues that are reviewed by partners, and then they all sit down to kick around the law and what the possible defenses would be.

Finally, they get around to writing the Answer that has to be painstakingly checked and rechecked. I can easily see this entire process taking a couple hundred hours. Remember this is considered very complex litigation, with novel facts, and some complicated legal theories, with millions of dollars riding on it, the Plaintiff's claims that they aren't in it for the money notwithstanding.

I dealt with some complex litigation dealing with asbestos property damage, as well as school desegregation. We spent those types of hours on research, meeting, drafting, etc.

I think it would easily take 3 or 4 people a week or two to complete the response to this lawsuit, and at 60 hours per week billable, that is going to get you to 200 pretty quickly.

NCAces

[NCAces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I know big firms often overbill their clients, but 80 hours to read and discuss the complaint and make phone calls, and another 40 hours to draft an answer is kind of insane. That's 120 hours to draft an answer -- a full month of billing for one person, to do what would take me no more than a couple days. (I've actually never spent anywhere near two full days on an answer before, but this one is probably more complicated than most. I haven't looked at the complaint.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why lawyers suc! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, because they do the thorough job for which they are hired? WPTE has millions of dollars at stake ... why would it "suc" that some of the best lawyers in the country would bill for their work to help WPTE save their money and maybe their business?

NCAces