God and Free Will - Page 8

bunny · #71 04-15-2006, 02:18 AM

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Hell I dont even know how we could possibly go back in time, yet alone thinking about block time with (present past and future) all on one "landscape" [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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I think this is a very salient point. I think it is impossible for us to conceive what it would be like to experience time like this. Nonetheless, I think the theist has to believe God exists outside of time or will run into paradox after paradox (the omniscience vs free will one being a good example).

Perhaps it is useful to think of the universe as a big novel. God is outside it and can access any single part of it, all the events are just references on different page numbers with no "flow" happening at all. This is despite the fact that the characters in the book are trapped in a past-present-future view of time. Look at the state of a character on any one page and they have a clear opinion about what has and hasnt happened yet. (This analogy breaks down fairly easily since when we read a book we do so within a meta-time and I am not claiming God has this nature - nonetheless it may help you conceptualise what I am talking about).

bunny · #72 04-15-2006, 02:20 AM

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Omnipresent = God experiences time all-at-once

It's a foundation of your argument

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Ok - if that's what it means, thanks! People usually try and explain it to me as "God is everywhere" or something which just seems strange. As you said though - your explanation is a foundation of my argument.

DougShrapnel · #73 04-15-2006, 02:24 AM

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Omnipresent = God experiences time all-at-once

It's a foundation of your argument

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Ok - if that's what it means, thanks! People usually try and explain it to me as "God is everywhere" or something which just seems strange. As you said though - your explanation is a foundation of my argument.

[/ QUOTE ] Does everywhere include past, present, and future? Present everywhere simultaneously; is the dictionary def. If it does I believe that omnipresence is essential to the argument.

bunny · #74 04-15-2006, 02:27 AM

I agree - I was perhaps ignorant of what omnipresent actually meant.

Edit: I would claim God doesnt actually exist at every point in space and time though. Merely that they are all equally accessible.

chezlaw · #75 04-15-2006, 02:30 AM

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I agree - I was perhaps ignorant of what omnipresent actually meant.

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me too.

I'm wondering if god could exist in time but not our time. bit like a simulation programmer.

chez

DougShrapnel · #76 04-15-2006, 02:32 AM

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I agree - I was perhaps ignorant of what omnipresent actually meant.

Edit: I would claim God doesnt actually exist at every point in space and time though. Merely that they are all equally accessible.

[/ QUOTE ] Then nope, not omnipresence very similair ideas tho, your were right. Although, omnipresence would imply the all times simultaneuosly.

edit: I don't think there is a closer word to what you are describing other than omnipresent.

bunny · #77 04-15-2006, 02:37 AM

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I'm wondering if god could exist in time but not our time. bit like a simulation programmer.

chez

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The only way I can begin to imagine what it is like to "be God" is by imagining myself in a sort of meta-time (like the reader of a novel who experiences the same sort of time as the characters in the book but the two are completely unrelated).

This is how I imagine the "hyperdimensional chemistry set kid" making the universe.

Copernicus · #78 04-15-2006, 02:40 AM

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Hell I dont even know how we could possibly go back in time, yet alone thinking about block time with (present past and future) all on one "landscape" [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a very salient point. I think it is impossible for us to conceive what it would be like to experience time like this. Nonetheless, I think the theist has to believe God exists outside of time or will run into paradox after paradox (the omniscience vs free will one being a good example).

Perhaps it is useful to think of the universe as a big novel. God is outside it and can access any single part of it, all the events are just references on different page numbers with no "flow" happening at all. This is despite the fact that the characters in the book are trapped in a past-present-future view of time. Look at the state of a character on any one page and they have a clear opinion about what has and hasnt happened yet. (This analogy breaks down fairly easily since when we read a book we do so within a meta-time and I am not claiming God has this nature - nonetheless it may help you conceptualise what I am talking about).

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Free will, time as a landscape without past present or future from an external frame of reference and the influence of a creator (hell..throw in the many universes solution to quantum uncertainty) can be conceptualized as a very robust interactive DVD.

There are millions of copies of the DVD, which can only be played interacitvely once, has many decision points, the options available depend on prior decisions, and the selection of an option is governed by a "belief system" selected in the opening scene of the DVD plus a randomizing element.

The creator of the DVD knows all possible outcomes before the DVD is played...he is omniscient. He created all of the possbilities for each character...he is omnipotent. Once he has set the DVD in action by instilling (choosing) a belief system the characters have free will within that belief system.

Each copy that is played generates a new "parallel" universe. The characters in the DVD have a past present and future at any time mark, but to an outside observer time inside the DVD is a landscape, any point in which can be accessed at will.

(This one breaks down by trying to incorporate "free will" as a randmonizing factor, a necessity borne of the characters not being alive or conscious, but can proably be improved to make a better fit).

DougShrapnel · #79 04-15-2006, 02:41 AM

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I'm wondering if god could exist in time but not our time. bit like a simulation programmer.

[/ QUOTE ] I've always assumed this to be the case. Turns out it's very inconsistant of me to do so.

luckyme · #80 04-15-2006, 03:03 AM

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I agree - I was perhaps ignorant of what omnipresent actually meant.

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me too.

I'm wondering if god could exist in time but not our time. bit like a simulation programmer.

chez

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It's a concern that if this cover gets blown we could fall back on god existing outside of the space and time that's outside of this space and time, and if that's fails then...

I realize people are sincere when they reach for this cover story but I don't think I could base my belief on anything so contrived and look somebody in the eye and tell them. I think somewhere in there is one of the psychological differences between some atheists and some theists, at the least.

No doubt to some theists my view of the existance of an external reality would be just as difficult to adopt. no harm, no foul.

luckyme