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#62
02-20-2006, 03:54 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
What about hands, that he doesnt think he is bluffing with A9-AJ? JJ-88? [/ QUOTE ] I think that is the most important part of the hand. Can he be value betting a worse hand or not. 
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#63
02-20-2006, 03:54 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
Dear everyone who says the turn check induced a river bluff: Not one of you has named a single hand which he could have that he would be "bluffing" with. He called my flop bet, he doesn't have air. I recognize that the outline of this line (bet flop, check behind on turn, face a river bet) is very often a bluff, but given the board it is very unlikely. In all the responses in this thread, 0 people have actually come up with a possible hand which he could have bluffed with. [/ QUOTE ] quite a few people have named hands that he could bluff with. AJ,AT,KK,JJ,TT,AcKx. Are you not considering these as bluffs?
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#64
02-20-2006, 03:54 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Dear everyone who says the turn check induced a river bluff: Not one of you has named a single hand which he could have that he would be "bluffing" with. He called my flop bet, he doesn't have air. I recognize that the outline of this line (bet flop, check behind on turn, face a river bet) is very often a bluff, but given the board it is very unlikely. In all the responses in this thread, 0 people have actually come up with a possible hand which he could have bluffed with. [/ QUOTE ] quite a few people have named hands that he could bluff with. AJ,AT,KK,JJ,TT,AcKx. Are you not considering these as bluffs? [/ QUOTE ] Some of the hands in that range are absurd, and the others are not bluffs.
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#65
02-20-2006, 03:57 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What about hands, that he doesnt think he is bluffing with A9-AJ? JJ-88? [/ QUOTE ] I think that is the most important part of the hand. Can he be value betting a worse hand or not. [/ QUOTE ] i definitely would not consider a worse hand as value betting. worse hand than top pair top kicker on a 3 flush board and an A high board at that?
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#66
02-20-2006, 03:57 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
I am like you, I will never go down in a deep stack tournament with TPTK. Besides misplaying AK preflop, I feel TPTK is the mostly widely overplayed hand post flop. [/ QUOTE ] When the [censored] did I say I won't go broke with TPTK!? Early in a party tournament, you'd have to be retarded to never go broke with TPTK. [ QUOTE ] Your type of bet on the flop is definitely a one shot and if you get called or raised you fold. [/ QUOTE ] If villain raises me on the flop, I beat him into the pot shoving the rest of my stack in.] [ QUOTE ] I think you have to rep the flush on the turn by betting T1000. [/ QUOTE ] I have top pair, this makes no sense.
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#67
02-20-2006, 04:01 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I think you should raise more or flat call. The stacks are deep and I don't think any of the callers are going to fold. The raise will most of the time buy you the button. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Right after I made the small raise I realized the mistake. I didn't bother thinking about the numbers, I just picked a pretty number.
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#68
02-20-2006, 04:07 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Dear everyone who says the turn check induced a river bluff: Not one of you has named a single hand which he could have that he would be "bluffing" with. He called my flop bet, he doesn't have air. I recognize that the outline of this line (bet flop, check behind on turn, face a river bet) is very often a bluff, but given the board it is very unlikely. In all the responses in this thread, 0 people have actually come up with a possible hand which he could have bluffed with. [/ QUOTE ] quite a few people have named hands that he could bluff with. AJ,AT,KK,JJ,TT,AcKx. Are you not considering these as bluffs? [/ QUOTE ] Some of the hands in that range are absurd, and the others are not bluffs. [/ QUOTE ] KK and AK = absurd? is this what you meant? additionally if villain has ANY of these hands and is betting 2000 on the river into a hand in which he is either WA or WB on, then why would you not consider these hands bluffs? certainly not value bets, since almost no hands that he would have beat, call here. is this not the very definition of a bluff. he is trying to get a better hand to lay it down.
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#69
02-20-2006, 04:08 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What about hands, that he doesnt think he is bluffing with A9-AJ? JJ-88? [/ QUOTE ] I think that is the most important part of the hand. Can he be value betting a worse hand or not. [/ QUOTE ] This is the first thing I thought. There are plenty of people here who will bet AJ on the river because they have an ace without thinking about the fact that you are never/rarely calling with a worse hand. I think the problem with this is that most of the people who fit that profile would have overplayed their AJ somewhere else, probably on the flop. These are the type who bet into you on an ace high flop, call your raise and get stacked. I'm not saying he can't have AJ (he could read your check behind on the turn as AJ being the best hand and be making the "he doesn't have anything, I win!, so I bet" bet). But I think you have to underweight a weaker A somehwat because a lot of the guys who will value bet this river also would have bet the flop. So, I think the fold is correct, although getting nearly 3 to 1, I don't hate myself after calling, which I probably do, even if I lose to a flush, which I probably do.
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#70
02-20-2006, 04:08 PM
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Re: With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!
You only need to be right 25% of the time for this to be correct. I don't really see why everyone is acting like AT or AJ are impossible here. It isn't a good line with these hands, but I dont think it is unexpected by any means.
So, what range to do we put him on, that beats us? A flush? Well, we are making some pretty big assumptions here, when putting him on a flush. We know he doesnt have AK (we have the king). So, if it is a nut flush, it is AQ or less. So, AJ-AT have to be in his pf range, for us to really be seriously considering a flush. If they are in his range, will he really be folding Ad Jd, to a C-bet? If not, wont he expect it to be good on the river? Basically, the flush is only really scary if we put him on a fairly wide range of pf hands. I'm not willing to do that without putting A9+ in as well. Most of those aces are betting this river. I think it is a stretch to find a fold here, the more that I think about it.
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