I thought this was fairly straightforward

[PHiLLeDINGUE]

every one seems to forget the other side of the mirror.... what is samo image and what is the BB thinking of samo's 3bet ??? If samo as been pretty agressive (as usual) the BB might do that 4bet with a realy WIDe rande... TT+ AQs+ maybe even worst ...and off course with a bluff !!!

When the flop comes xxx pocket TT+ dont wanna give a free card to AK or so.... he's gonna push and push and push everytime almost!!

so because of that I call all day...

but I understand your point samo and MDMA... I just don't think that agst samo people play like that and think like that ...

[Prevaricator]

sam i understand what you're getting at, you can be less sure you are beat on one street and then more sure the next. That reasoning aside i just dont like this particular hand very much.

[SEABEAST]

FWIW, whether its correct in this case or not, I really took a lot from this post MDMA, especially in the distinction between making longterm technically correct plays and making decisions in the moment for the one time that that specific situation will ever come up. I know a few guys who are big winners live due to the latter but struggle online due to the former. Already something I understood intuitively but having it put into print is food for thought, thanks.

[BluffTHIS!]

I think everyone is making this analysis way too complicated. It all boils down to whether he thinks villain has to have AA a majority of the time preflop to make that last raise.

If answer is yes then stacks aren't deep enough to call for set value so he should have folded.

If the answer is no, but still with some possibility he is indeed up against AA, then the principle of playing in such a way as not to win the least when ahead and lose the most when behind applies. Which means he should just call preflop and then call any flop push except an A flop, and maybe even then, or push when checked to. This means when the answer is no to the original consideration, that he isn't just running off QQ/JJ/AK and getting stacked by AA, but is still committed nonetheless to getting the rest of it in on a non-A flop.

So as played he should have called the flop push or just folded pre.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
every one seems to forget the other side of the mirror.... what is samo image and what is the BB thinking of samo's 3bet ??? If samo as been pretty agressive (as usual) the BB might do that 4bet with a realy WIDe rande... TT+ AQs+ maybe even worst ...and off course with a bluff !!!

When the flop comes xxx pocket TT+ dont wanna give a free card to AK or so.... he's gonna push and push and push everytime almost!!

so because of that I call all day...

[/ QUOTE ]

this was my EXACT thinking when talking to chuddo online about it.

sam-

people do crazy [censored] against you and your lag style, they dont adjust properly. this is why u make tons of money.

his 4 bet range is much wider imo than u are giving credit for, and KK is doing very well against that range.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
Cats, what you have said is exactly correct. Unfortunately, this is a case where I cannot reveal the specifics of my thought process of why I played it as I did. It is specific to the opponent and the effective stack sizes. I usually provide plenty of insight into my thought process, but this is one case where I feel like it is not in my best interest to do so.

Given that, I didn't even think this hand was worth posting (as I will play it very differently against different opponents and different effective stacks). But I posted it just because the other guy asked me to.

[/ QUOTE ]


So given your reads/insight, this is a standard fold. But we don't have access to your reads/insight, so we can't possibly be expected to arrive at the same conclusion. So this discussion is pretty close to worthless. As you said, not worth posting.

With no reads/insight, calling the flop push seems standard. I don't see any other direction for the discussion to go without further information. If you just want your friend appeased, then mission accomplished and we can let this thread die.

[samoleus]

fsu, Ledingue,

I totally agree with your concepts IN GENERAL. However, there was a specific reason against THIS PARTICULAR reraiser that made me think that he would check fold with anything other than ace or queens and would probably bet a scared amount with queens.

Again, this post is not really worthwhile because I can't reveal the reasons without opening up myself to exploitation. However, as you guys correctly pointed out - because of my image, I call this flop bet many many times against many players.

[samoleus]

MDMA, I could not have described this better if I took a week to draft this. Your clarity of thought and willingness and ability to elucidate it is really impressive. Guys, for those who do not understand or disagree with the play at a surface level, please reread MDMA's post. It outlines my thinking process to the absolute hilt - and beyond.

Thanks MDMA ...

[Gus Spangles]

samo,

i was villain in this hand. this time i had queens. so thank you. and thank you for this thread, my friends and i have gotten a huge kick out of it.

also, this is going to be a stone-cold move with air preflop a much larger % of the time than people are crediting. one i am willing to follow through with on the flop when i hit no pair no draw quite often.

[PoppinFresh]

[ QUOTE ]
samo,

i was villain in this hand. this time i had queens. so thank you. and thank you for this thread, my friends and i have gotten a huge kick out of it.

also, this is going to be a stone-cold move with air preflop a much larger % of the time than people are crediting. one i am willing to follow through with on the flop when i hit no pair no draw quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

this post really makes me think you had AA [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]