Debate: Teachers Wages

[tolbiny]

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When a union gets out of control, the market corrects. Look at the airlines or autos.

Since this is a public good, the market can't correct.

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I disagree. The "market" can correct by voting down school budgets if union demands somehow got that far out of line.

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There is no alternative that can be switched to if the deamnds get out of line. Vote down the school budget? Then the teacher's strike and the product dissapeers. No real alternatives. If the Ford plants shut down due to a strike then GM, Honda or Kia will gladly hop in and grab as much market share as possible.

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even teachers strikes can be broken

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Sure it can be broken, that doesn't mean it isn't harder to break than other unions, and it doesn't mean it can be broken simply by passing "market efficiency" because there is no market to compare it to, and no market to replace it with.

[Copernicus]

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When a union gets out of control, the market corrects. Look at the airlines or autos.

Since this is a public good, the market can't correct.

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I disagree. The "market" can correct by voting down school budgets if union demands somehow got that far out of line.

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There is no alternative that can be switched to if the deamnds get out of line. Vote down the school budget? Then the teacher's strike and the product dissapeers. No real alternatives. If the Ford plants shut down due to a strike then GM, Honda or Kia will gladly hop in and grab as much market share as possible.

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even teachers strikes can be broken

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Sure it can be broken, that doesn't mean it isn't harder to break than other unions, and it doesn't mean it can be broken simply by passing "market efficiency" because there is no market to compare it to, and no market to replace it with.

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market based union strikes cant be broken solely by market efficiency either. That is why unions were formed in the first place...to add a layer of extra-market influences on normal market forces.

Im not saying it isnt more difficult in the public arena...just not impossible. And I still havent seen any posts on why the unions are "totally responsible" for the decline in education. There were teachers unions 40 years ago that had been around for 50 years at the time...whats so different about the last 40 vs the first 50? Certainly not "solidarity" or a more powerful bargaining position.

[Machinehead]

I definitely think teachers should be paid more. I know a couple teachers and it really enlightened me on this issue. Both teacher's have to work through summers for supplemental income to survive. One is around my age(mid 20s) and is fairly young by teacher's standards. He can't afford to buy a house or condo on his salary and probably never will living here(Miami, high real estate prices). Teacher's annual raises don't even cover inflation costs here, so essentially they lose money each year. He loves teaching, but has been contemplating a different career because of the never ending financial struggle that comes with being a teacher.

Also, how could the average quality of teachers be anywhere near decent if the pay is so low? Sure there is the small percentage of smart teachers who deal with the financial burdens because they love what they do. But on average, most reasonably bright people with any type of ambition in life will seek a different career. So we're left with the people who aren't bright/ambitious enough to make any more money as the majority of teachers. As I think back through my experience in public school, I'd say most teachers I had fall under that catagory. If they paid better, the quality of teachers goes up, and so would the education.

[ianlippert]

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That's because "education" has no actual goal. What is the point of education? Literacy? Social skill development? IQ development? Job training? A wide mix of trivia that the student is never going to use? Discipline?

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This is another problem with the public education system, there is no choice for consumers. Every kid is rammed down the same system. There are usually concessions for the extra gifted or slower students, but three streams is hardly a good system.

So many of the courses offered are a waste of time. I dont see anything wrong with letting students and their parents make their own life decisions. If someone wants to drop out at 16 and work in a factory for a couple of years, why not let them make a wage and get the money that would have gone into the public system. Mabey this student is a deadbeat drop out who just wants to get high every day, or mabey he wants to save up some money so that he can go to a real university.

I had a friend who dropped out when he was about 17 and it really looked like he was going nowhere. Once he got a little older he realised that he needed to do something with his life he finished the neccessary highschool credits in 2 terms and went to college for 3 years, and now works tech support for the local hospital making very good money. The current system of teaching seems very inefficient.

[natedogg]

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If a company had to not only give leave for birth/infant care but also give COL and merit pay increases while they were out the gap would be closed...but less qualified women would then be making the same as more qualified men.

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That isn't what would happen. It would increase unemployment for women with professional degrees, as they would be a bigger cost a commitment for a company to bring on. A company would naturally tend to hire men more easily than women if these costs were imposed.

natedogg

[lastchance]

Performance-based pay/assessment would go a long way, as it creates massive incentives for teachers to teach better.

Technical/specialized schools are also a good idea. Some people simply do not like conventional schooling, and do much better in more physical and coordination related jobs. Let them do what they want.

Good administrators. A great principal can save a school. Widely underestimated when it comes to creating good schools.

[Copernicus]

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Performance-based pay/assessment would go a long way, as it creates massive incentives for teachers to teach better.

Technical/specialized schools are also a good idea. Some people simply do not like conventional schooling, and do much better in more physical and coordination related jobs. Let them do what they want.

Good administrators. A great principal can save a school. Widely underestimated when it comes to creating good schools.

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A reasonably accurate method of evaluating performance is the problem, especially during the early years.