Debate: Teachers Wages
 

It got me thinking...should people get paid for their worth (define worth as contributions to society)?

-Obviously not even close in our society, which allows poker players and sport stars to make millions while teachers comparatively get paid squat. That’s not to say poker players and sports stars do not work hard for their money, but there is a big difference in the overall contributions to society that each job exhibits....

A common suggestion is-
Teachers should not be paid by the hours they work, but by the grades of the students they teach.

Yet, this level of thinking brings up a lot of problems…

- Some teachers would simply lie, and give their crappy students an A+.
- What if a good teacher gets a lousy group of students
- Geographical location… it’s a known fact children coming from economically stable environments do better then the kids struggling from poverty.

There are a lot of factors, people over look when trying to raise wages. If you raise salaries of underpaid jobs, then other companies would just raise there price on goods and merchandise, etc.. thus accomplishing nothing.

Raising the wages of teachers in general would accomplishe absolutely nothing. It would be more beneficial if teachers were evaluated more closely and often. Bad teachers need to get fired while good teachers need raises. Bottom line, the public school system is like communism (hence why the public school system sucks so bad in America).

At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system. Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation. In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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It would be more beneficial if teachers were evaluated more closely and often. Bad teachers need to get fired while good teachers need raises.

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Vouchers.

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Bottom line, the public school system is like communism (hence why the public school system sucks so bad in America).

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Vouchers.

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At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.

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Why the hell don't we use vouchers yet?

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system. Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation. In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

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I have a plausable idea for major cities. Imagine a school in the inner-city of Chicago. It is made of all kinds of students from the best to the worse. The worse encumber the ability for the best to obtain an education in a favorable environment.

So, you segregate the students, by the type of student they are. Students getting A's & B's go to seperate schools. Those getting Low B's & C's, who do not have disciplinary problems go to other schools. Those getting low B's & C's with disciplinary problems go to another school. Those getting low B's & C's with more serious disciplinary problems go to another school.
Finally, the criminals (but still students) who seldom show up, other than to fight, deal drugs, disrupt class, destroy school property, attack teachers, get their own schools, manned with armed guards.

Now the students have a reason to excel: To get into the best school, with the best chance of succeeding in life. The light at the end of the tunnel is no longer as dim as it appeared............at least, that's what I think.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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Why the hell don't we use vouchers yet?

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Vouchers allow those students whose parents are not quite well enough off financially to pay their way through a private school.

Therefore, Vouchers do nothing but remove those students, whose parents are not quite rich enough to finance their kids education out of their own pocket, from the public school system, and does absolutely nothing to cure the problem.

Furthermore, imagine the dissent in the private schools, when the students of parents who qualify for Vouchers because they make 15% < X meet up with kids whose parents make X + 15% and do not qualify for vouchers.
The parents making X +15% are paying more out of pocket than the parents making X - 15% and in many cases will have less disposable income after paying for their kids schooling than those making X -15%.

That doesn't even begin to sound fair.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

IMO, one large problem in the failing schools, are the parents.

An example of dealing with a "failing" school.

Two years ago we received a letter stating that my daughters school failed for the year. The letter said that if I wanted to switch her to another school, I needed to come in and meet with them. I got there and the woman pulled my daughter's grades and FCAT scores, (straight A's and very good FCAT scores). She said, well your daughter doesn't qualify because she is obviously very bright. She then looked up and realized that she doesn't receive free or reduced school lunch. She said "I'm sorry but she doesn't qualify". This kind of disturbed me, I said "so if she was stupid, and the government helped me feed her, she could go?" Begrudgingly she said "yes." I told her that "I can understand you don't control it, but the government can throw money at it til the cows come home and it won't get any better until the sorry assed parents get off their lazy asses and work with their children at home".

Understand that this was an elementary school. IMO a kid has to try to fail in order to get bad grades in K-5th grade. Unless they have some sort of learning disability.

Perhaps atleast worth a "pilot program" is to allow the private market to educate. Instead of putting x-dollars into schools, spend x-dollars on each child to go and get educated in a private school. The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

I'll beat natedog to this.

Is your goal to:

1) Educate Children
2) Preserve the Public School System

One doesn't necessitate the other. You can educate children without government run schools.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

Generally I think wages should be free market. It is impossible to argue that athletes and movie stars are "overpaid" (poker players are a different story, and in fact are probably underpaid as "entertainers"). As long as people pay $100+ for their sports seats and $15 (havent been to the movies for years...that about right?)then athletes and movie stars are earning what they make. If they get to the point where ownership/studios are no longer viable, there will be a correction.

Other jobs/careeers work pretty well in their realm as well, because ultimately there is a product to sell, and the labor cost for making those products will find the right level between profitably, skills, education etc.

When you get to teaching though, there is a disconnect. There are no product sales that have measurable profits to provide a natural benchmark to wages. Even if you find effective benchmarks for "performance" (most likely testing related, not grades), that only gives you relative value between teachers, not between teachers and other jobs. Should an entry level high school teacher earn more or less than an entry level accountant? nurse? management trainee?

I dont know the right level, but I do think its too low right now. Teaching might not be the right career for the "best and the brightest", their value to society might best be invested in other areas. But it also shouldnt be the refuge for the mediocre, who can do little more than babysit.

Have public school salaries kept pace with inflation for the last 50-60 years? The overall quality of education was clearly better 40 years ago, apart from the family aspects. If the relative wages for teaching has fallen, that may be a clue to the problem.

Anyone who has the notion that complete privatization of schools doesnt have a grip on reality. The ultimate result is almost inevitable...a much smaller group excelling, a much larger group dropping out or just marking time, and a lower achieving middle than we have right now.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

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1. It is far from an "easy ass job" when its done properly. It doesnt start at 8 and end at 3, with planning, grading, meetings etc. it is easily a 10 hour a day job.

2. Its more like 2 months off, but teachers arent able to hibernate. They still have to eat, feed their families, pay their mortgages etc for those 2 months. On top of that, while they get the same standard holidays as everyone else, they dont have other paid "vacations". If the average vacation time in other industries is 4 weeks, the teacher is less productive than other industries by 1 month, far less than the 3 you are maintaining. The answer to that is to utilize them for that month, either by adjusting to a more year round schedule or finding other things they can do, like continuing education requirements, tutoring etc.

3. The level of job security is higher than other non-unionized industries, but comparable to other union jobs. Pay for performance will go a long way to weeding out or at least mitigating the impact, and certainly address your "motivation" and "pressure" issues.

4. There may be a rare few who can learn as well from books than from teachers, but they are the exception. Their importance is NOT overrated. There is little doubt that they are failing to do their jobs as well as possible, but thats a problem with the system (likely to be a wage issue more than anything), not an intrincically lower value for what they are supposed to be doing.

When you stop ranting, start thinking.

Re: Debate: Teachers Wages
 

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They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation.

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Is this a good thing?