Dealing with Introversion

[bwana devil]

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I have a friend who says he used to have the same problem. He joined toastmasters. problem solved.

www.toastmasters.org

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Isn't that more of a public speaking organization, than a 'talk to people in social setting' organization.

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yes, it's about giving speeches but those skills transfer over to other settings. social anxiety is the fear of giving speeches or just starting a conversation while around a group of five strangers. it's about practice and desensitization.

im the president of my toastmasters organization. i hated public speaking 3 years ago. now i just dislike it, much like the rest of the general population.

bwana

[Our House]

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Ever since I was in high school, being around new groups of people has made me somewhat anxious and extremely quiet. I've since gotten past the anxiety, but I've never been able to get past being quiet and being myself.

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I was the same way until I was like 14 or 15, started buying DJ equipment and started hanging around DJs, MCs and dancers. Since then, I've emcee'd jobs for crowds of over 2000 people.

I'm not saying you should go out and start a mobile DJ business, but try to hook up with a local company or people you know who emcee or dance for DJ companies. Maybe they could get you out as a "roadie" on some jobs.

That would completely change your introversion.

[Homer]

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Get a girlfriend that likes that quality about you and accept who you are. I am the exact same way. I realized a few years ago that I just didn't like small talk or idle banter. I keep a small ring of close friends and am much happier this way. You can train yourself to be more outgoing but I am willing to bet that you won't like it. Just be yourself.

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[dauler]

I'm not sure why you're taking such a hostile tone to my post madnak, but I should clarify on introversion vs. social anxiety disorder since there seems to be a lot of confusion about that in this thread.

Introversion vs. extroversion is basically the difference of whether a person would rather spend their time alone or with a group of people. That's a personal preference that is fairly stable, and there's no right or wrong as far as which you are.

Social anxiety disorder is often confused with introversion because introverts are the most likely to develop S.A.D. However social anxiety disorder is simply the natural anxiety that develops when someone doesn't know how to act in social situations, avoids them, and then perpetuates the fear to a heightened level. This goes beyond introversion where you're bored or disinterested in the company of others to being terrified by it. This anxiety CAN be cured, but whether someone enjoys social interactions more than being alone after their anxiety has been cured is another matter.

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Social skills are skills in the way that painting is a skill, not in the way that soccer is a skill.

And yes, in painting it's good advice to "do what feels best." There are technical skills involved, but those technical skills are useful only insofar as they enhance the personal and imaginative content of the subject. Art is a highly intuitive discipline, just like social interaction. If there's anything this world needs less of, it's greasy-haired smooth-talking bullshitters who are indistinguishable from one another.

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No one is encouraging anyone to lose their personality by following a cookie cutter routine with every person that they meet, this is simply a good starting point that will make someone able to effectively communicate. As they get more comfortable they develop their own sense of appropriate behavior. It's very similar to playing poker, there are guidelines for how to begin but each situation is different and as people develop their skills they're able to use their own personal judgement.

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Personality does tend to be static after the age of 30, but in general it's dynamic and constantly evolving. A dramatic shift in the environment tends to have a dramatic effect on personality. But different people in the same circumstances often end up with very different personalities. Similar people (such as identical twins) in very different circumstances also end up with very similar personalities. One of the tasks of the research psychologist is to identify the static or biological referents and determine how they affect the development of personality.

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The main reason that personalities tend to remain static after age 30 is because peoples routines have become fairly stable. They generally have a career by this time that they go to every day, they live in the same place and see the same people all of the time, they've got a group of friends that is fairly stable. You're speaking in terms of statistics which hide the truth about the matter. It doesn't matter if someone with S.A.D. is over 30 and has a "stable" personality, by immersing themselves in social situations which they'd been avoiding they can still change.

In general though, I agree with you. There is a lot of biology which plays a role here. "Just be yourself" is fine advice for people who feel satisfied with who they are, but it's often used as a copout by people who aren't willing to put in the work of changing themselves. If a person wants to change, that's a sign that they haven't learned how to act in a way that satisfies their personality's needs. Feeling regret at not being able to start conversations with strangers shows that he does have that desire. I'm not trying to force an introvert to do something that he doesn't want to do, I'm trying to teach someone the skills to do what he wants to do.

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First, confidence isn't universally valued. Not even close. But confidence, at least in modern American culture, is effective in social situations so I'll put that aside.

This is still utter garbage. I'm so much more confident in unfamiliar situations now than I was 5 years ago you wouldn't think I'm even the same person. That's not because of "practice," it's because I've developed a sense of self-respect and a general trust in my own abilities.

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Again, your hostility seems very out of place. And I think that your agenda to disagree with what I have to say has blinded you to what I'm saying. You say that after 5 years you've developed much more confidence in yourself because you've developed a general trust in your abilities. First of all, let me say congratulations. But this supports what I'm saying, the reason that I emphasize practicing social skills is that it lets you develop that trust in your abilities. The fact that you even know that you're more confident in unfamiliar situations now implies that you've been engaging in unfamiliar situations over the past 5 years. This distinguishes you from people with social anxiety disorder: the very reason that they have the disorder is because they DON’T engage in unfamiliar situations, and they’ve built up an unreasonable fear of them. Engaging in them, which you seem to have done, is exactly the cure that I’m proposing, but for people who don’t want to wait 5 years this is a much more rapid solution.

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There are many people who are experts in their field but who still can't speak confidently about it. There are also many people who know nothing about a subject and yet speak with total confidence about it.

I know from experience that it's possible to "act confident" without knowing what to do, and to "act nervous" when knowing exactly what to do. Insecurities aren't always rational, and even when they are they often stem from internal rather than external factors. One of the defining features of introversion is being deeply affected by those internal factors.

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You’re overgeneralizing what I’m saying and misapplying it. I said that confidence is knowing what you have to do and doing it. An expert in his field may know everything about his subject, but SPEAKING about it is something that they aren’t sure that they know how to do.

“Acting confident” in the way that you describe it involves being confident in your abilities to BS. These people have practiced BSing before and they know exactly how to act to come across the way that they want to. Ask a person with social anxiety to “act confident” when giving a presentation about a subject that they know nothing about and you’ll see what my actual point was.

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As an acute introvert and someone who has overcome social anxiety disorder, I'm pretty familiar with them. They are not the same thing. They aren't even close to being in the same ballpark. The idea that introversion is just SAD indicates a deep misunderstanding of and lack of appreciation for introversion and introverts.

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I hope you understand now that I’m not trying to cure introversion, my suggestions were for social anxiety disorder, but there’s no reason to get hung up on technical terms when it was clear that Boolean was asking for help with his anxiety.

[madnak]

Well, I disagree with you on a few points but this isn't SMP and I obviously misinterpreted your post. Sorry about that, I'm pretty passionate about this issue.

[wegotsnakes!]

Firstly, i want to say thanks for your responses dauler, they are very informative.

I've experienced a lot of the same problems as Boolean mentioned, and, to my surprise, they seem to have gotten worse in college. I feel awkward in social settings with people who a) i've never met before or b) have only spoken to briefly in the past. Though I know that I am aninteresting person, I feel like it is difficult for me to relate that to new people primarly because entering/maintaining conversation is so difficult and awkward for me.

I've also told myself that I don't want to socialize with most people because they are boring, loud, unintelligent, etc. (something that some of the respondents in this thread have mentioned) but I feel like this may just be an excuse I've constructed as a way to avoid socializing.

This has not only affected me in my social life but, also, I feel like it will be strongly inhibitive in my professional life as I am going into the business world and I know that networking and socializing are vital to a career in that field. Any further advice you guys have would be appreciated.

[MrMoo]

Make a game of talking to people. When you're put into such a situation think of questions you can ask to get a response out of the person you're talking to. Something that they can't simply answer yes/no to. See how quickly you can find something in common with them.

[Boolean]

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Get a girlfriend that likes that quality about you and accept who you are. I am the exact same way. I realized a few years ago that I just didn't like small talk or idle banter. I keep a small ring of close friends and am much happier this way. You can train yourself to be more outgoing but I am willing to bet that you won't like it. Just be yourself.

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Well, I'd take that bet myself. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Firstly, my social awkwardness is something that I despise about myself. I don't like not knowing what to do, and how to act. In fact, when I'm in those social settings, I'm not being myself at all. Either through fear or anxiety, I can't express myself. It's like I can never let myself be an ass or let myself act stupid, all out of fear. And fear of what? I already feel that I know that someone's opinion of me doesn't invalidate myself, but I can't make my body believe it. It still gnaws at me, makes me tense, and turns me into a mute. THAT'S what I hate about myself. The constant requirement of validating myself to people I don't give a flying [censored] for. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'd like to be myself, I really would. My girlfriend asks me why I don't show what I show to her around other people? Why can't I be confident? I feel that confidence is the crutch of today's society. If you're in any public, professional position, you must have confidence in yourself, and your ideas. This is yet another reason why this is so important to me.

I was diagnosed with Social Anxiety when I was younger. They medicated me, and gave me counselling, and it just didn't work. Now, I know it isn't just caused by my thoughts or my feelings. It's caused by something I cannot control internally. However, I am going to try all of the things I can to break myself of these psychological barriers that are preventing me from expressing myself.

I do believe that you can change yourself, no matter how old you are, as long as you truly WANT to, and will put forth the effort to do so. I know this, because I've done it already. This is just another change I will make and get past, and I'll be better for it. If "myself" is someone who cannot function in a social setting, ISSCKM.

I do want to thank you all for all of your posts of encouragement and your suggestions. They has helped me out tremendously, and only time will tell if I do make progress.

-Boolean

[sexdrugsmoney]

Your problem is that you dominate yourself.

You play life as weak tight fearing other big hands out against you.

I'll wager that you've never invaded a village with your tribe, looting gold and taking women as you please.

Once you do this, you'll realize how superior you are to men and women and will engage them in conversation freely, knowing subconsciously that they live only because you let them.

You girlfriend will respect you more, her friends will want to sleep with you, and you'll add a couple of inches where it matters. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[dauler]

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I've also told myself that I don't want to socialize with most people because they are boring, loud, unintelligent, etc. (something that some of the respondents in this thread have mentioned) but I feel like this may just be an excuse I've constructed as a way to avoid socializing.

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One side effect of increasing your social skills is that people BECOME interesting. People aren't inherently interesting or uninteresting, it's the interactions that you have with them that make them what they are. If you're socially anxious, think of how people probably perceive you when they first meet you. They probably don't think that you're too interesting because you don't say too much, but we both know better than that, you've had a whole lifetime of experiences that make you an amazing person.

So by increasing your communication skills, you help to elicit information from them that's interesting. Look back at this conversation that I made up:

You: Hi, I'm _____.
Her: I'm _____, nice to meet you.
You: Do you like the professor?
Her: Yeah, I guess.
You: Do you have enough time to finish his tedious homework?
Her: Not really, I keep pretty busy.
You: Do you have a job?
Her: Yeah. *and looking uncomfortable at being barraged to a rapidfire series of questions with no transition between them*

She’s not very interesting, is she? But when you start controlling the interaction and helping her to reveal herself more effectively, you discover someone that has real potential to be a neat person:

You: Hi, I'm _____.
Her: I'm _____, nice to meet you.
You: So what do you think of the professor?
Her: I think he's pretty nice, but the homework is really tedious, I'm usually so busy that I struggle to keep up with all of it.
You: What keeps you so busy?
Her: Well I practice gymnastics 20 hours a week and I've got a part time job at Sephora.
You: Really, gymnastics, that sounds interesting, how long have you been involved in that?

Gymnastics, mmm, just imagine what she can do with her legs! You need to give people an opportunity to reveal themselves, and a lot of the time you discover “Hey, this person is actually pretty cool!” Do you remember that story that gonores posted about Panhandling Pete? Here’s a link to it for those of you who haven’t read it:
Part 1
Part 2

Who could have thought a homeless guy could be so awesome? If gonores had just given him some money and walked away he would have never known that. Instead he ate with this guy and talked to him and discovered an amazing person. When you start developing your social skills with people, you’ll discover the same thing in all sorts of people that you wouldn’t have made any connection with before.

Now I can’t guarantee that you’d rather be talking to a group of strangers than playing poker in your room after developing your social skills, but you’ll at least know how to have enjoyable interactions with people if you so desire.

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This has not only affected me in my social life but, also, I feel like it will be strongly inhibitive in my professional life as I am going into the business world and I know that networking and socializing are vital to a career in that field. Any further advice you guys have would be appreciated.

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Yes, social skills are very important in the professional world. Interviews are based on your social skills as much as they are on your credentials, whether you like it or not. It’s a big part of how competent you’re perceived to be, for better or for worse, so it affects promotions, raises and workload also.

Communication is the basis of relationships also, so even if you already have a girlfriend that you’d like to spend the rest of your life with, effective communication skills are still very important. Relationships require you to be assertive at times, and it can be tough. There’s a balance that needs to be struck, because if you’re too assertive you come off as aggressive and angry, and if you’re not aggressive enough you can become a doormat. This is only one way that effective communication skills are used in relationships, believe me when I say that they come up a LOT.

I’ll try to make up a more comprehensive writeup complete with explanations of strategies, exercises and assignments to get you well on your way to being a top notch communicator. I’ve got a paper to write by tomorrow and a presentation on Monday, so unfortunately I can’t indulge too much right now, but practice what I already said and the results will show. In the mall assignment, make sure you say hello to EVERY PERSON YOU SEE, don’t make up excuses like “he’s wearing an ipod” or “this person is talking to her friend,” because the whole point of this assignment is to get you to stop making up excuses that keep you from talking to people. That’s what keeps you from talking to strangers in the first place, isn’t it? You can always make up excuses for why you shouldn’t talk to a certain person, but it’s important that you realize that these are only excuses. Good luck.