no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
bankroll in relation to hourly rate is much smaller at nl. i think winrate of a decent 2/4nl and a decent 10/20 lhe is close to the same. proly around 50c a hand. i would say equivalent, fairly conservative, bankrolls are 8k and 20k respectively.

naturally this shows that the downswings are indeed much smaller in relation to $/hand at nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your pretty off here... 1 PT BB at 2/4 NL is 8 cents, VEEERY few people people make over 6 PT BB over the long haul there, and if you are good enough to do so you should be moving up anyway. Same with 10-20 limit, 2.5 bb/100 is doable, but you would have to be a good player and game select well, and if you could do that you could probably make more money at 15-30 or whatever level above that. As far as BR goes, it's not fair to take a 20 buy in role as good for NL and then 100 BB for limit... the 20 buy in barometer is prolly close to saying you like 450 BB for a limit b-roll, which is pretty ambitious. A good roll for 10-20 limit or 2-4 NL is like 15kish IMO for both.

[baronzeus]

i think with the same bankroll and skill you can make 3x as much money/hr in NL than in LHE

[Victor]

ggb, ya youre right. i should have scaled my estimates down. i think its easier to make 3ptbb at nl than 1bb at limit. does that sound right? im curious and just goin on my results/experiences.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
i think with the same bankroll and skill you can make 3x as much money/hr in NL than in LHE

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and you might be able to make more, but the above figure is a GROSS exaggeration. People claim to make huge amounts and have huge WR's, but after people datamined party a lot it was concluded that TONS of people's were claiming WR's over 5 PT BB/100 and there was like 1 person doing at 5-10 and less than 5, it might have only been 2 or 3, doing at 10-20. And the the NL games were MUCH [censored] SOFTER THEN. It's much more common to find very solid players playing 2-4 or 3-6 these days because the 5-10 and up games are just bad on a given day, which just didn't use to happen. You might be able to make like 35% more at NL now, 3x is nowhere in the ballbark if you are talking about non super high limits. (I have no idea how to guess what realistic earn's are for people who only play 100/200 NL+ or only 200/400 limit+) Making 3.5 PT BB/100 at 5-10 is not easy to due at all over very large samples, and i would bet you that there is at least as high a percentage 30-60 limit players who make 1.15 PT BB/100 or whatever the equivalent WR is for $/hand. If you include rakeback it's even closer. You guys just grossly over-estimate what most NL ppl. make cuz it's easier to have a 20k sample that is super out of whack for NL and then people post like it's their long term WR.

[dangerfish]

GB,

Your right on as far as winrates but you can't forget your going to be playing so many more hands in nl than lhe. For me a large # of hands in a month for lhe is 50k that is nothing for a nl grinder.

[ggbman]

Dangerfish- what you say is very true, which is a large part of why i conceded that a NL player could make like 33% more... when i play NL i generally can feel comfortable playing 700-800 hands and hour at medium to low stakes, and for limit i think my ideal number is in the 550-600 range. The point is that if you are very good at either, the earns should be quite close on a $/hand basis, and NL players can get in 25% more hands comfortably in the same number of hours so they end up making a bit more on average. And really, i'm not trying to assert that the two are exactly the same, just that they are pretty close and people are overestimating how much mid stakes NL grinders make by a [censored] ton. Bryce also hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that there is just currently a much larger player pool at high stakes NL than limit and the games run with a higher frequency which is what creates the largee disparity between what the top NL guys are making right now compared to the top limit guys. When 1k/2k limit ran everyday with TLK, limit people could def. be putting up similiar huge figures (a 400 BB month is like 800, which is a little over .75 BB/100 at 50k hands)

Victor- I think for a new player, it would be easier to lean to make 3 PTbb/100 at a middle stakes NL game than 1 bb/100 at a mid-stakes limit game. But for veteran players, i think it's a pretty close equivalent. A solid nl grinder should be able to make 3 PT BB/100 at his limit as a limit grinder should be able to make 1. If a nl grinder is making 6 at a limit of a large sample in todays games, he is a minority and is crushing it, which can be said of a limit player doing 2 BB/100 as well. I don't know what an exactly fair correlation is, but i would suspect that 3-1 is pretty close for NL-limit win-rates. It sounds like your view might be skewed for running well in the time you played NL... when i started playing it with no experience i made 10 PT bb/100 for like 40k hands at the party 10-20 games... just like with limit small samples mean nothing and it's super easy to think "oh i'm getting my money in good" doens't mean you're not running super well in terms of the set ups/siutations you encounter etc...

The overall again, is that i don't know exactly how much more a nl player should make in todays game conditions, but the post by BZ and the general sentiments in this thread just demonstrate that limit players overestimate what average NL grinders pull in the long haul...

[euroglot]

I heard you guys talking about 'the glory days' (I'm playing poker for 7 months). I wanted to open a new topic about this but I thought I could just ask the question here:

<u>Do you think 'the glory days' will ever come back?</u>

So the games are getting tighter and tighter..do you think the games will loosen up again in the future so there is more money to be made?

(excuse me for my bad English I'm from Holland)

[stigmata]

repeal/carvout of UIGEA would surely bring about a "second golden age of internet poker"

[skillzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

<u>Do you think 'the glory days' will ever come back?</u>


[/ QUOTE ]
as soon as they release internet vol2.

[Sergey_rus]

Im my experience its very hard for succesful high stakes limit player to beat 25/50 nl games. Got no idea why it looks like every player reads hands better than me, my bluffs/semi bluffs dont work at all.