Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[jb9]

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Internet poker, due to the acceptance of such foreign devices such as Tracker or Miner, is becoming more and more a computer based game and not a human based game. Soon, every internet player will be arming themselves with every possible device from card mappers, to bots, to trackers, to miners. If we do not take a stand somewhere, we can only allow ALL devices to be used. We must ban all devices or allow all of them to be used.

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This *could* have been an interesting discussion, but once you mudsling Pokertracker all discussion is over...

There are 2 points you raise that I find interesting:

1. The extent to which online poker can and should mimic live play and whether or not it has to achieve a certain level of similarity to be viable.

2. Whether or not practical enforcement can be accomplished online without having such invasive security procedures that recreational players will be discouraged from playing.

I'm not sure how much like live poker online poker needs to be, but I probably need to play a lot more live poker before I could have any real understanding of the issues. I do think that once you allow players to multitable you have changed the game in a fundamental way that may or may not justify the use of additional tools or aids.

I disagree that the use or banning of software tools needs to be considered as an "all or nothing" issue. I think it should be practical to say "X is allowed, Y is not," but so far none of the sites have been very successful in defining these issues let alone enforcing compliance.

B&M casinos are very heavily regulated by government and spend a small fortune on security. Without the regulation and serious security efforts, it would be nearly impossible to keep the games reasonably honest (meaning that casual players do not fear being robbed in large enough numbers to ruin the industry).

Eventually online gaming sites will have to provide the same level of "reasonably honest" gameplay, but it does not seem to be a primary concern of the industry right now (grabbing market share and immediate profits seems to be the primary concern).

[piki]

PokerTracker is far from AI. It merely provides you data, condensed and easily accessible. What you do with that data is entirely up to you. I believe that this is the key point - you should make each and every decision on your own. That implies that helper programs you use do not produce some numbers/symbols from which one could directly deduce the 'right' decision. Simple statistics available from PT database are far from such level of sophistication.

So PT is generally recognized as ethical and acceptable. Used correctly, it can provide one with advantage over the other player, but why would that be so unfair it could be considered unethical? One person may be smarter than the other, it's not fair, but is being smarter unethical? You have to draw the line somewhere.

Actually, the line's been more or less drawn already. It's in T&Cs of online casinos. PT is ok, bots and other AI is not ok, colluding and other types of cheating not ok. Wether you like it or not is completely up to you. But the message you're trying to send out in public is quite off. Internet gambling is definitely not doomed.

-pix

[PlayaHata]

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Having ANY device that is not available through the poker client and available to EVERY player is UNETHICAL.

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What about a hand chart or an odds chart? That is not available on the party lobby so is that unethical to use? What about SSHE or TOP


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It is NOT a part of POKER,

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There will always be different variations of a specific game. And saying one variation is not valid simply because you are accustomed to a different form or poker is what is ludicrous.

Landscapes change in every sport/game. In boxing some matches are 12 rounds and some are 5. Some matches use specific gloves while others don't.

Poker also has these variations and different environments to play in. All of this will add subtle changes to the way the game is played. In hold em the 5/10 blind structure is different then 2/4. Just like there are speed SnG's and normal SnG's, and then B&M tourneys. All which are very different. No other form is more real then another though.

The landscape of internet poker is vastly different from B&M. Rules are different. Online I only have 15 seconds to act while B&M i can take several minutes. This doesn't mean that online poker is not "real" poker. It is just different. B&M I can muck my hand and no one ever gets to see it. I can't do this online, but that doesn't mean it is not "real" poker when someone looks up my hand history after the hand is over. Basically you can't compare B&M practices to online practices to conclude that a certain practice is unethical. They are two completely different landscapes. And poker is played differently in both places. Online you are allowed to use PT and PA Hud. This is a variation to B&M poker. This does not mean online poker is not "real" poker. Again it is just a different environment you are playing. You as a player just have to adjust with in that environment.

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i like your argument, you make extremely valid points. although i never said that online poker wasnt 'real' poker, but that just may have been your way of validating your point. maybe if you could clarify the point of 'real' poker.


but here is the thing. my argument is that the state of online poker is forever in 'peril', that there always exists some method of cheating the system to have an unfair advantage compared to the average player. card mapping for planet poker, multi accounts in MTTs on stars and party, to Bots on every major poker site. the state of online poker is in peril as the validity and security of this 'landscape' is at stake. as party is clearly having little or no interest in stopping the current spread of winholdem users (on the winholdem site they clearly explain how to circumvent the detection systems) the landscape of internet poker will soon face major turmoil as more and more players arm themselves with poker bots, poker card mappers, etc. any and all programs that can possibly give any amount of an edge will be acquired and used. and this is my qualms with internet poker.

i was hoping others would see that the spread of PT and other "allowed" poker programs is what spawned this spread of "program edge" but they are tirelessly defending their program. "if it is not banned by party, it must be ethical."

the fact is that the changing of the landscape of internet poker is what is causing internet poker to loose all validity and security.

[MNpoker]

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to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

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I love that you posted this AFTER several posters already answered the question.

Are you reading the thread or just randomly posting?

P.S. Do you think the 2+2 Forums should be illegal as well? I use a computer to access them and I believe it's helped my game.

[betadecay]

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to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

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The big difference is that one is legal and the other is not. Again the environment is different. If a site said we allow colluding, you would then have a very different form of poker being played on that site. Tables would be comprised of teams figuring out odds and roi using several cards, and figuring out the best way to get the most money from other teams. This would still be poker, and it would not be unethical. It would just be a different variation (also I think this would be really fun).

PT is software we are allowed to use in the online environment. Poker bots are not. Using a Poker bot is unethical because you are participating in a practice that breaks the rules of the online environment. I think that instead of saying "PT is unethical", you should say "I don't like online play because it allows the use of PT".

[MNpoker]

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but here is the thing. my argument is that the state of online poker is forever in 'peril', that there always exists some method of cheating the system to have an unfair advantage compared to the average player.

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Do you think there are ZERO cheats in B&M's?

[PlayaHata]

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Neither will pirate ships. YARRRRRR, THIS THREAD SUCKS

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if this thread sucks, why post?

[DonkeyKongThe3rd]

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I think your problem is trying to compare live play with internet play. Apples and oranges.

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but it shouldnt be that way, and that is my real point.
online poker is supposed to bring the casino to you, not an altered defination of a casino.



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This one time I was sitting down at a table and the seat right behind it at the adjacent table was also empty. I asked the floor-manager if I could play both seats to multi-table and he asked me why.

"Well, this way I can play twice the number of hands in an hour, get comped for both tables and build up my balance twice as fast, and also get into the long run quicker since playing low-limit tables tend to have a high variance"

He chuckled and then politely declined.

[betadecay]

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i like your argument, you make extremely valid points. although i never said that online poker wasnt 'real' poker, but that just may have been your way of validating your point.

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I was just saying that in the stead of saying, "not a part of poker"


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but here is the thing. my argument is that the state of online poker is forever in 'peril', that there always exists some method of cheating the system to have an unfair advantage compared to the average player. card mapping for planet poker, multi accounts in MTTs on stars and party, to Bots on every major poker site. the state of online poker is in peril as the validity and security of this 'landscape' is at stake. as party is clearly having little or no interest in stopping the current spread of winholdem users (on the winholdem site they clearly explain how to circumvent the detection systems) the landscape of internet poker will soon face major turmoil as more and more players arm themselves with poker bots, poker card mappers, etc. any and all programs that can possibly give any amount of an edge will be acquired and used. and this is my qualms with internet poker.

i was hoping others would see that the spread of PT and other "allowed" poker programs is what spawned this spread of "program edge" but they are tirelessly defending their program. "if it is not banned by party, it must be ethical."

the fact is that the changing of the landscape of internet poker is what is causing internet poker to loose all validity and security.

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I aggree with what you say. As someone who currently plays for a living this is all worrisome(I just read the wired article). Everyone has known for a while that the online poker world is going to face some very tough hurdles in the latter part of the decade. I for one am looking into going back to school because of issues like this. As long as the tables are profitable though, I will continue to play. PT did lead to other software that would allow people to cheat. But I think that was inevitable. We are dealing with competitive sport were money is on the line. Cheating is going to arise in the form of software wether PT was introduced to online poker or not. I don't think PT is the culprit here.

[ShakeZula06]

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to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

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Bots are against T&C, so it's cheating
PT is not against T&C, so it's not cheating
Bots are usually kept secret and not everyone has access to it
PT advertises there product, and everyone is allowed to buy one
Bots make there own decisions after they are programmed
PT cannot make any decisions, it only gives you information in which to make a decision.

Clear enough? Now go troll somewhere else!