A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack

[MLG]

i see what you're saying. that there are very few non OP hands he has if that's his range. I dont know though, i have a really hard time believing that Rizen's repopping range is so tight here, it seems not great. if it is though, and if he knows we're good that means he should not be stacking off ever with TT, and usually not with JJ right?

[BPA234]

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calls and hopes board comes 93222
pretty much just keep calling and then shove non Q-K rivers

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lol WHAT? Horrible. How about any 10, J turn/river cards? Just keep calling and shove non K-Q rivers? So are you saying you think he might have KK or QQ? Why not then put in the big raise on the flop?

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Since the players involved have history with each other and the villain is good enough to fully understand what ever line the hero takes, forcing the villain to play OOP and aggressively bet his over-pair may actually be the most profitable line.

Trying to find the line that best exploits the villain's hand and playing style, especially when the villain is very good, is an excellent option. Also, if you are advocating a raise from fear of the villain drawing to a set, I disagree with that premise.

Personally, I think the villain's reraise oop so early in a mtt represents real strength, and I would reraise preflop to get more chips in the pot (forcing a bigger flop bet).

[shaundeeb]

I think this hand breaks down to one of those playing unexploitable vs playing optimal

[MLG]

also shaun, if his reraising range is really that tight you need to 4-bet preflop.

[shaundeeb]

I semi agree MLG I thought shoving PF is fine vs 99% of people I don't think rizen folds JJ to a shove PF and that's my default line but this discussion was more about flop and turn play.

[MLG]

shaun,
yeah i hear you, its just that given the assumptions you're making (and you are certainly in a better spot to make them than me these days) it makes it impossible to discuss the flop and turn without preflop. because its a situation that makes preflop into a clear mistake instead of a meh whatever spot.

[kutuz_off]

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I don't think rizen folds JJ to a shove PF

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I think this is very wrong. I wouldn't put it beyond him to fold QQ, if he knows you're not a random online donk.

[BPA234]

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I semi agree MLG I thought shoving PF is fine vs 99% of people I don't think rizen folds JJ to a shove PF and that's my default line but this discussion was more about flop and turn play.

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Unless the vill thinks the hero is easily capable of shoving a fairly wide range preflop, I don't think the hero can shove and expect a call from the villain holding anything other than KK/AA maybe, QQ. But, even then I'm not sure villain calls this early and deep with less than KK.

This seems especially true since the villain likely reraises preflop with a much larger range than he would ever call with. Shoving in that case seems to unnecessarily tighten the villain's range and reduce the likelihood of a wider range giving more action on more flops and turns.

I think MLG meant reraising pre>>>>than smooth calling. Y/N?

[MLG]

yessum.

[0evg0]

everyday i manage to be shocked by how bad some people play

wtf would we raise this flop? i mean, this is seriously the most idiotic thing i can think of. he auto-folds over 50% of his hands, meaning he doesn't get the chance to turn top pair. and then the other half of his range is now looking to find reasons to fold turn (TT/JJ) or fold to a 2nd bet on river (QQ/KK), if not fold on this ridic dry flop in the first place.

and i'm really hoping i'm reading it wrong when shaun says that Rizen is doing anything close to getting even most of his chips in with JJ at any point here, otherwise shaun is even worse than i actually thought.