Discussion: Common preflop situations

[pineapple888]

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pineapple888, don`t you think that min. raising 66 there gives to much info away ? People could put you on a small pp everytime you only min raise there.

Regarding 67s your completely right. I said call earlier, but with BB still behind to call and being out out position against 2 players your right. Turbo-Muck

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Regarding the minraise, it's read-dependent, and I change it up (std. raise sometimes w PP, minraise sometimes with other hands). I use it mostly on a loose passive table where a std raise followed by cbet is not all that likely to succeed, but they are happy to pay off my set if I hit.

Regarding 76s, we are in absolute position on the button, although we could end up in poor relative position if the blinds come along. But the real problem is I don't like playing these low suited connectors to a raise with only 100BB, we are on the a$$-end of hands too often and it's too easy to get pot-committed. Double the stacks, giving us room to play and increasing the implied odds for when we do hit hard, and I call pretty fast.

[udbrky]

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A couple of common preflop situations. If you say raise, include also how much to raise to.

For all hands, assume:
50NL, 6 players
100bb stacks
No reads


Hand #1: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to $2, Button calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Raise to $8. This looks like a squeeze play, and you've got a stronger hand than CO will probably give you credit for having. C-bet the flop to take down a nice pot if called.

Hand #2: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Complete.

Hand #3: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Call. Possible Stop and Go. If he has missed overs, he'll probably put you on a pocket pair.

Hand #4: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $2, folds around, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Call.

Hand #5: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Call. I just seem to get into trouble playing these hands OOP in raised pots. But it's too strong to fold. I'm calling a reasonable raise though.

Hand #6: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 fold, MP calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Call.

Hand #7: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

(edit): Fold - thought it was suited at first.

Hand #8: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Fold. OOP, MP is still fairly EP.



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[Sir Winalot]

Interesting opinions about the AT hand. Up untill now I've been thinking that (even OTB) this would be a quick fold with 2 limpers. I'd like to hear more about the different choises here if someone cares to elaborate.

Overcalling:
To me, calling here seems pretty horrible because in my experence AT plays bad-bad-bad in multiway pots. Now, you're saying calling is ok. Does this mean that we take a cheap flop and try to sort of underrepresent our hand in order to get value from smaller A's postflop? But in my opinion this play has one major flaw: there are so many other players that someone may well flop some weird and very well hidden 2 pair/set (including worse Ax pairing their kicker) that is near to impossible for us to read correctly in time.

Raising:
I'm not quite sure why we are raising here. Is it just to punish [censored] limpers on our button? In my experience it's quite hard to make them all fold.

Are we raising for value? If so, from what hands are we looking to extract from? I'm not sure we're getting multiple streets of value from Ax that are worse than ours. Also, there's a chanse that someone will limp with AQ/AJ and we're screwed.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting opinions about the AT hand. Up untill now I've been thinking that (even OTB) this would be a quick fold with 2 limpers. I'd like to hear more about the different choises here if someone cares to elaborate.

Overcalling:
To me, calling here seems pretty horrible because in my experence AT plays bad-bad-bad in multiway pots. Now, you're saying calling is ok. Does this mean that we take a cheap flop and try to sort of underrepresent our hand in order to get value from smaller A's postflop? But in my opinion this play has one major flaw: there are so many other players that someone may well flop some weird and very well hidden 2 pair/set (including worse Ax pairing their kicker) that is near to impossible for us to read correctly in time.

Raising:
I'm not quite sure why we are raising here. Is it just to punish [censored] limpers on our button? In my experience it's quite hard to make them all fold.

Are we raising for value? If so, from what hands are we looking to extract from? I'm not sure we're getting multiple streets of value from Ax that are worse than ours. Also, there's a chanse that someone will limp with AQ/AJ and we're screwed.

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Well, look, limping along OTB is far from horrible, as long as you are smart enough not to lose a bunch of money with one pair. I mean, if you are deep enough and the other players are bad enough, that's true of virtually any 2 cards OTB, and ATo is certainly better than any 2. It can make the nut straight, and top 2 pair or trip Tens are certainly very strong hands, and if nobody seems interested in the flop, it certainly has some bluff/showdown value.

The thing is, 100BB was specified, and nothing was specified about Villains, so I think it's a fold in the example you gave, but there are definitely times I would play it in similar spots.

[munkey]

Assume readless and most likely action first.

Raise to 7(repot that [censored]), call too.
call, raise sometimes
mostly fold, raise to 7 , call sometimes
call
fold , v. rarely PFR, call(once in a 100 PTBB month)
call, raise
folds, call sometimes depending on villan.

reading the replies, I seem to be a bit more of a limper.
[ QUOTE ]

Interesting opinions about the AT hand. Up untill now I've been thinking that (even OTB) this would be a quick fold with 2 limpers. I'd like to hear more about the different choises here if someone cares to elaborate.


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I'm not a particular fan of ATo so play it somewhat more cautiously - only in late posn/ blinds HU.

I often limp AT OTB, as ticks previously mentioned limpers ranges include alot of weaker Tx broadway and Tconnectors and suited aces which we dominate. AJ+/TT often raise but even if we are beaten we have position to control the pot size. This doesn't incude the times we flop 1 card str8 draw and can check behind or xTTx board where we break JT type of hands. Remember to often bet the river on Txx high flop as fim once said.

I raise less often with multiple limpers OTB with ATo as their ranges improve and we up the pot/stack ratio with a tricky hand. But then I oftne overlimp 2+ limpers OTB so it fits in with my general preflop-&gt;river play.

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pineapple888, don`t you think that min. raising 66 there gives to much info away ? People could put you on a small pp everytime you only min raise there.

Regarding 67s your completely right. I said call earlier, but with BB still behind to call and being out out position against 2 players your right. Turbo-Muck

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding the minraise, it's read-dependent, and I change it up (std. raise sometimes w PP, minraise sometimes with other hands). I use it mostly on a loose passive table where a std raise followed by cbet is not all that likely to succeed, but they are happy to pay off my set if I hit.

Regarding 76s, we are in absolute position on the button, although we could end up in poor relative position if the blinds come along. But the real problem is I don't like playing these low suited connectors to a raise with only 100BB, we are on the a$$-end of hands too often and it's too easy to get pot-committed. Double the stacks, giving us room to play and increasing the implied odds for when we do hit hard, and I call pretty fast.

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I missread the hand and somehow thought that we where in SB, on the button i call here.

[6-Max Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of common preflop situations. If you say raise, include also how much to raise to.

For all hands, assume:
50NL, 6 players
100bb stacks
No reads


Hand #1: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to $2, Button calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font> Raise to $8

Hand #2: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero? </font> Call

Hand #3: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, <font color="red"> Hero? </font> Reraise to $7.

Hand #4: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG raises to $2, folds around, <font color="red"> Hero? </font> Call

Hand #5: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero? </font>Sometimes limp(zomg open limping), sometimes raise, sometimes fold. w/o a read I'm limping.

Hand #6: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 fold, MP calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font> Raise 4xBB

Hand #7: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>Call.

Hand #8: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>Fold...usually. If there's loose blinds that I think will absolutly call if I call, I'M CALLING.

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[ticks]

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Hand #8: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero? </font>

Fold. OOP, MP is still fairly EP.

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The stronger you think villain is, the more reason you have to call in this situation.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting opinions about the AT hand. Up untill now I've been thinking that (even OTB) this would be a quick fold with 2 limpers. I'd like to hear more about the different choises here if someone cares to elaborate.

Overcalling:
To me, calling here seems pretty horrible because in my experence AT plays bad-bad-bad in multiway pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are overcalling and hoping to flop the nuts or a draw to the nuts. It costs 1BB and everyone in the hand has 100BB stacks. Thats implied odds city.

I'm *only* calling here OTB - playing ATo multiway OOP just won't be profitable as there is so little Fold Equity at uNL. But povided you have some kind of postflop game ATo is very profitable here

vs 2 random hands (and we can't nail down villains ranges further than that as we have no reads and they both just limped) looks like...

31,271,011,002 games 97.485 secs 320,777,668 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.903% 44.10% 00.81% 13790690939 254060876.00 { ATo }
Hand 1: 27.553% 26.91% 00.65% 8414218396 203845835.00 { random }
Hand 2: 27.544% 26.22% 01.33% 8199918814 415129912.00 { random }

(if the SB completes and BB calls and we are up against 4 random hands we still have ~26% equity in a 5 way pot.)

The postflop plan is to a) flop the nuts and extract - b) flop a TP weak kicker hand or TPTK make a small value bet on the flop and then get the hand to SD cheap - because we have position we can do this and usually win a small pot from worse aces/lower pairs.

Just don't go nuts with one pair - if we flop TPTK and one of the villains wakes up and starts betting big just fold cos he likely flopped a goofy 2pair or trips or an oddball straight or something that has us toasted.

I think folding hands like this when we could easily see a flop for 1BB and could potentially flop TTx or KQJ or some monster flop is a leak - sure most of the time we miss and c/f the flop but 2 times in 100 (2.02%) the flops coming ATx 1 time+ in 100 (1.3%) the flops coming TTx or AAx 1.1% of the time we flop a nut flush draw on a monotone flop etc etc

add all that up (and a few other longer shot flops like the KQJ etc) and roughly 7% of the time we flop a great hand and when we do we are likely to win a big pot - perhaps even a 100BB stack so overlimping is profitable even if we check fold any flop where we don't flop 2pair/trips/straight or &gt;10 outs to a great hand.

Flopping a monster when you are OTB is a wonderful thing and although the pots unraised there's enough limps in it (assuming BB checks and maybe even SB completes) to make getting chips into it and making it a big pot if we choose to play a big pot isn't too difficult.

Sometimes we flop a monster and bet at it and they all fold - meh we still make a little profit we'd have missed if we folded.

as far as raising here goes - I can't think of many upsides to raising when we have no reads, if we know that a limper is loose enopugh to call pre - and then fold to a CB most of the time then raising has merit, but I'd take the cheap flop and look to flop big here almost everytime.

[lacrymosa]

GRUNCH

1. RR to 6
2. call
3. fold
4. call
5. fold
6. raise 4xBB + 1 per limper
7. I hate building a pot here, I limp
8. call