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#41
09-29-2006, 07:30 PM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] huh? I see this payoff all the time in these games. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that he has 66, 77, 99 and is defense checking or is just stone cold folding. He doesn't have AJ often enough. [/ QUOTE ] hey joe, the concensus was that the guy should value bet 66 77 99 on the river because he should expect US to be the ones paying off with AJ. at least, this is the logic they all used to put him so squarely on AJ to justify a value bet. but then people even said there's some chance he's check raising on the river too, so who knows. mhush is the twilight zone. 
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#43
09-29-2006, 07:58 PM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
miles,
people in aggressive online games rarely fold big aces for one bet on the river, especially after their opponent shows weakness by checking the turn. It's just a fact of life.
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#44
09-29-2006, 08:04 PM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] huh? I see this payoff all the time in these games. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that he has 66, 77, 99 and is defense checking or is just stone cold folding. He doesn't have AJ often enough. [/ QUOTE ] ppl dont check innocuous turns with a pair. if they do, and i check the turn behind, they dont check the river with a pair when it blanks. you might, i might, a few ppl might but thats it. the large majority dont.
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#47
09-30-2006, 12:13 AM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
[ QUOTE ]
ppl dont check innocuous turns with a pair. [/ QUOTE ] Q turn is far from innocuous...
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#48
09-30-2006, 12:27 AM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
[ QUOTE ]
the concensus was that the guy should value bet 66 77 99 on the river because he should expect US to be the ones paying off with AJ. at least, this is the logic they all used to put him so squarely on AJ to justify a value bet. [/ QUOTE ] A lot of players who check the turn here are 100% defense or give up at that point the river bet loses a lot of value. [ QUOTE ] mhush is the twilight zone. [/ QUOTE ] Nicely put, you are my new favorite poster btw. Keep up the good work!
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#49
09-30-2006, 12:53 AM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
[ QUOTE ]
miles, people in aggressive online games rarely fold big aces for one bet on the river, especially after their opponent shows weakness by checking the turn. It's just a fact of life. [/ QUOTE ] this statement is general and im not debating it. obviously people call down with ace high all the time. however, this hand is pretty specific. tight, "SOLID" tag raises utg, "SOLID" tag in sb 3-bets. utg tag calls a flop bet on a rag board (you should already wonder about AJ being in his hand at this point). then you guys all act like the off-tempo turn check is always defensive and not offensive. when you check through and he bets the river, i wonder what you guys all think the SB tag thinks you have. is AJ betting this river to fold out AK? like i said, why would he even think the guy has AK? is KJ 3-betting preflop and then bluff betting the river? i realize people call down lightly in heads up pots, but you have to admit this one is different. if you guys think this is so often a defensive check with a little pair then why dont you all suggest betting the turn and river with your AK to make him fold? that should work 100% of the time unless the guy's going to check call 99 twice (i realize the gutshot outs on teh turn make this less desirable). the way you are all coming to conclusions is weird because you leave out pertinent information. since people call ace high all the time, SB should not bluff the river. thus UTG should not call this river with ace high. thus SB should reconsider value betting all these low pairs.
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#50
09-30-2006, 02:27 AM
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Re: AK unimproved river play
i have not read through this thread yet so I hope I am not repeating what everyone else is saying. I am also gonna ignore play from other streets which I think is not the greatest. Anyways, once you checked on the turn you gave up on the pot completely and left winning up to the deck. If he really is a "solid winning tag" like you said its really hard to put him on a hand but i am gonna say JJ, 99, AK, and maybe AJ. maybe he got tricky with AQ, TT, QQ+ and figured the only way to get more money was by letting you bluff off to him. now look at how you played it, it looks like you have basically nothing. On the river of course he is going to check it to you. If he is as good as you say he knows that he is way better off checking to you for bluff equity rather than betting and having you fold most of the time or call with a better hand. He is going to call you with all hands except aj and maybe ak. when he folds you will think you made a nice play when in reality bluffing the river is -EV. This hand is the perfect example of only getting called when behind (except for a few rare cases w aj etc) and folding better hands. I would also be very curious to know what his hand is for the times when you are ahead. and after he sees you play AK like a vagina nit you are going to have more fold equity in better spots than this. you seeing his 2nd best hands and him seeing your hand is good for you and bad for him. also, the way he played this hand does not sound at all like the description you gave of him which was kind of vague anyways. so my response was based on a player like the one described. it may be possible that he misclicked but if i had misclicked it would have tilted me enough to not check the turn so who knows.
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