Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[MNpoker]

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

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You absolutely would NOT be kicked out of a casino for this. Many players bring in notepads and make notes on what other players did (and their tendencies, etc.)

PT absolutely does a GREAT job of note taking and organizing. But it does not collect any data that you would not have access to in a B&M. (I will give you that you might get kicked out of a B&M for asking to see every players cards every hand)

Data-mining is completely different. I'll even agree that there is a grey area here. I happen to think it stops at Data-mining (you should not get HH's for hands you didn't play) and others will put that line somewhere else.

A on-line casino can have 'local' rules, just like a B&M can. If there is demand for a site that does not produce any HH's or show other players hole cards, I would guess one will eventually pop up. Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive).

[PlayaHata]

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What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

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I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

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The computer will make the mathematicall correct decision based on the pokertracker stats with no mistakes. You will make a mathematical correct decision with some mistakes based on the pokertracker stats.
The pokertracker stats are not manualy calculated in your brain, the stats are computed artifically therefore pokertracker is a form of Artificial Intelligence just like a bot. Since player statistics is important; One could theortically say that a PT user play is 90% human 10% artifically?

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bingo

[Borgland]

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

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You absolutely would NOT be kicked out of a casino for this. Many players bring in notepads and make notes on what other players did (and their tendencies, etc.)

PT absolutely does a GREAT job of note taking and organizing. But it does not collect any data that you would not have access to in a B&M. (I will give you that you might get kicked out of a B&M for asking to see every players cards every hand)

Data-mining is completely different. I'll even agree that there is a grey area here. I happen to think it stops at Data-mining (you should not get HH's for hands you didn't play) and others will put that line somewhere else.

A on-line casino can have 'local' rules, just like a B&M can. If there is demand for a site that does not produce any HH's or show other players hole cards, I would guess one will eventually pop up. Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive).

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Raymer was shown on TV writing notes during the WSOP ME.

[MrMoo]

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What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

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I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

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So if I write a game theoretically optimal program which tells me to call/check/bet/raise/fold are you okay with me using that? As long as I'm the one clicking the buttons, it's okay in your eyes?

The OP is right in one sense. As soon as you allow a computer program to aid your play in any way, you let the floodgates open. The ethics of using a program after that point becomes a distinction in the mind of the person running that program. The majority of 2+2 is hypocritical in this sense. Poker bots are a big no-no yet everyone jumps in and buys Poker Tracker->Poker Ace->Party Mine->SNG Analyzer. What if Eastbay released a new version of SNG Analyzer which read hands in real time and gave recommendations? My guess is a majority of 2+2'rs would buy it without thinking twice.

[PlayaHata]

to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

[O Doyle Rules]

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The OP is right in one sense. As soon as you allow a computer program to aid your play in any way, you let the floodgates open. The ethics of using a program after that point becomes a distinction in the mind of the person running that program. The majority of 2+2 is hypocritical in this sense.

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[betadecay]

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Having ANY device that is not available through the poker client and available to EVERY player is UNETHICAL.

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What about a hand chart or an odds chart? That is not available on the party lobby so is that unethical to use? What about SSHE or TOP


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It is NOT a part of POKER,

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There will always be different variations of a specific game. And saying one variation is not valid simply because you are accustomed to a different form or poker is what is ludicrous.

Landscapes change in every sport/game. In boxing some matches are 12 rounds and some are 5. Some matches use specific gloves while others don't.

Poker also has these variations and different environments to play in. All of this will add subtle changes to the way the game is played. In hold em the 5/10 blind structure is different then 2/4. Just like there are speed SnG's and normal SnG's, and then B&M tourneys. All which are very different. No other form is more real then another though.

The landscape of internet poker is vastly different from B&M. Rules are different. Online I only have 15 seconds to act while B&M i can take several minutes. This doesn't mean that online poker is not "real" poker. It is just different. B&M I can muck my hand and no one ever gets to see it. I can't do this online, but that doesn't mean it is not "real" poker when someone looks up my hand history after the hand is over. Basically you can't compare B&M practices to online practices to conclude that a certain practice is unethical. They are two completely different landscapes. And poker is played differently in both places. Online you are allowed to use PT and PA Hud. This is a variation to B&M poker. This does not mean online poker is not "real" poker. Again it is just a different environment you are playing. You as a player just have to adjust with in that environment.

[Gildwulf]

Everything has to die out and some point, so yes, poker was doomed from day 1.

[1C5]

baseball will never die.

[Gildwulf]

Neither will pirate ships. YARRRRRR, THIS THREAD SUCKS