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#31
04-12-2007, 03:47 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind? [/ QUOTE ] Far ahead. Unless all 3 are the same suit, and someone flopped the nut flush. Then you're a 2:1 underdog. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. That's the point I was making. With a 6 way pot you never really know. 
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#32
04-12-2007, 03:50 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also, I'm not sure why you think that betting 1/3 of your stack is being pot committed no matter what the flop is? There are coordinated flops that you can fold AA to, especially if there are more than 2 players in the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Well, with 1 caller, having bet 1/3 of my chips, my stack is the same as the pot. If they go all-in, I'm getting 2:1 odds. Unless it's a really scary board, or I have a good read on the person, it will be hard to get away from. [/ QUOTE ] And this is why just playing the odds in a live, capped game may not be the best strategy all the time. We are having this same discussion in another thread here about 2+2 strategy forums and the different types of advice for online vs live. There may be no reason to call a post flop push on a coordinated board even at 2:1 because you may very well already be a less than 2:1 dog.
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#33
04-12-2007, 04:13 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, I'm not sure why you think that betting 1/3 of your stack is being pot committed no matter what the flop is? There are coordinated flops that you can fold AA to, especially if there are more than 2 players in the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Well, with 1 caller, having bet 1/3 of my chips, my stack is the same as the pot. If they go all-in, I'm getting 2:1 odds. Unless it's a really scary board, or I have a good read on the person, it will be hard to get away from. [/ QUOTE ] And this is why just playing the odds in a live, capped game may not be the best strategy all the time. We are having this same discussion in another thread here about 2+2 strategy forums and the different types of advice for online vs live. There may be no reason to call a post flop push on a coordinated board even at 2:1 because you may very well already be a less than 2:1 dog. [/ QUOTE ] I agree it's not impossible to get away from. But it's a LOT harder. The reason is that you don't have room to bet for information. You can't bet a decent continuation or even a feeler bet without REALLY pot-committing yourself. So, if I raise the guy to $60 (1/3 my stack), he calls. I have $120 left, he has $120; pot is $120. If I now bet out 1/3 the pot (feeler/trap bet), that leaves me with $80. If he moves in, the pot is now $280, and I have $80 left. I'm getting 3.5:1 to call. Unless that flop was way scary, I have to call. If I bet a half decent, 1/2 pot continuation bet of $60, and he moves all in, then the pot is $300 & I have $60 left. 5:1, begrudgingly insta-call. I totally agree that you don't want to push small edges live -- because you can't play as many hands, you need to maximize your returns on the hands you do play. It seems to me that betting a big portion of your stack pre-flop minimizes the ability to trap opponents, and out-play them after the flop. You price them & yourself in, so you are maximizing the luck-factor. Just my thoughts right now... I'm still learning.
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#34
04-12-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind? [/ QUOTE ] Far ahead. Unless all 3 are the same suit, and someone flopped the nut flush. Then you're a 2:1 underdog. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. That's the point I was making. With a 6 way pot you never really know. [/ QUOTE ] If you have to KNOW you have the best hand in order to get chips in the pot, you're already far behind.
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#35
04-12-2007, 06:03 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And this is why just playing the odds in a live, capped game may not be the best strategy all the time. We are having this same discussion in another thread here about 2+2 strategy forums and the different types of advice for online vs live. There may be no reason to call a post flop push on a coordinated board even at 2:1 because you may very well already be a less than 2:1 dog. [/ QUOTE ] I agree it's not impossible to get away from. But it's a LOT harder. The reason is that you don't have room to bet for information. You can't bet a decent continuation or even a feeler bet without REALLY pot-committing yourself. So, if I raise the guy to $60 (1/3 my stack), he calls. I have $120 left, he has $120; pot is $120. If I now bet out 1/3 the pot (feeler/trap bet), that leaves me with $80. If he moves in, the pot is now $280, and I have $80 left. I'm getting 3.5:1 to call. Unless that flop was way scary, I have to call. If I bet a half decent, 1/2 pot continuation bet of $60, and he moves all in, then the pot is $300 & I have $60 left. 5:1, begrudgingly insta-call. I totally agree that you don't want to push small edges live -- because you can't play as many hands, you need to maximize your returns on the hands you do play. It seems to me that betting a big portion of your stack pre-flop minimizes the ability to trap opponents, and out-play them after the flop. You price them & yourself in, so you are maximizing the luck-factor. Just my thoughts right now... I'm still learning. [/ QUOTE ] I think live, much more so than online, you need to be keenly aware of stack sizes at all times. This is because there is generally a much wider range of stack sizes live. Online, your bets are standard size (1/2 pot c-bets, or whatever). But live, you need to bet according to stack size more often. If you find yourself calling with 5:1 odds when you know you're behind, it's because you didn't bet properly. It's something I've been working on a lot lately. Bet so that you don't have to make these tough decisions. Either small enough so you can easily fold, or large enough so you can easily call.
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#36
04-12-2007, 06:25 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind? [/ QUOTE ] Assuming no flushes, how can you not be ahead?
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#37
04-12-2007, 07:22 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind? [/ QUOTE ] Assuming no flushes, how can you not be ahead? [/ QUOTE ] And why would you assume no flushes?
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#38
04-12-2007, 07:25 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind? [/ QUOTE ] Assuming no flushes, how can you not be ahead? [/ QUOTE ] And why would you assume no flushes? [/ QUOTE ] Because you didn't specify suits or give a qualifier such as "monotone flop" or "2-flush on the board."
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#39
04-12-2007, 07:29 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
pokenum -h ac as - jd td - 7h 6h - 8h 8c - 9d 9c -- ah 9h 8d
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 8d Ah 9h cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As Ac 196 26.45 545 73.55 0 0.00 0.265 Jd Td 156 21.05 585 78.95 0 0.00 0.211 7h 6h 288 38.87 453 61.13 0 0.00 0.389 8c 8h 64 8.64 677 91.36 0 0.00 0.086 9c 9d 37 4.99 704 95.01 0 0.00 0.050
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#40
04-12-2007, 07:51 PM
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Re: Open Raise 10BB?
[ QUOTE ]
pokenum -h ac as - jd td - 7h 6h - 8h 8c - 9d 9c -- ah 9h 8d Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 8d Ah 9h cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As Ac 196 26.45 545 73.55 0 0.00 0.265 Jd Td 156 21.05 585 78.95 0 0.00 0.211 7h 6h 288 38.87 453 61.13 0 0.00 0.389 8c 8h 64 8.64 677 91.36 0 0.00 0.086 9c 9d 37 4.99 704 95.01 0 0.00 0.050 [/ QUOTE ] Nevermind.
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