Minraising pre flop. WHY I don't think it's all-that-bad!

[Check_The_Nuts]

stop argueing with him. Your going to make everyone think its bad to minraise preflop with [censored] cards. Its CLEARLY a good move :P

[dd323]

I think there is a big problem here. Hands like suited connectors are much more trap hands in a limped family pot in NL. In limit this is no problem, because if you make a really good second best hand (like the bottom of a straight or trips no kicker or something) you're losses will be capped. In no limit, it is a much better hand to play short-handed in a raised pot, because when you hit your hand 1)you will be pretty sure it is good) 2)you actually have implied odds because someone else more likely has a big hand.

The better way to play these type of hands on the button is to raise with them. If the whole table will call your raise, then I guess you can just call, but be careful about hands like bottom 2 pair or the like (ie Doyle's don't go broke in a limped pot). Also, this is no-limit not limit. An extra 8BBs in the pot is almost meaningless, as this makes the pot the size of a raised pot with one caller.

IMO, this doesn't hurt you a huge amount, but it certainly doesn't help. If you want a bigger pot, play at the next limit up.

[mjws00]

This does NOT work well at an aggressive table, or probably with observant opponents. However, I think there are lots of opponents we can exploit with pot building bets.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]They won't cold call 4BB+1 in error. They will call 2BB and then another 1-2BB from you in LP. They are still just as likely to fold to a psb on the flop. In fact more so because the bet is a much larger percentage of their stack and MORE THAN THEY ARE USED TO. When you fire the second barrel either with or without the goods, these weak players are extremely uncomfortable. Scared uncomfortable money is DEAD MONEY.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Absolutely this is some weird kind of game that is twice as expensive. It's even worse by the turn and river where it is multiplied. Granted I don't have the game or the nads to pull this crap at 100NL+... but the nano fish will happily pay double or triple and still see almost every flop. We have position, a hand, and the ability to play post-flop. They are uncomfortable, out of position, and praying for a miracle.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The point is not minraising. The point is finding the threshold of pain for our opponents. Maybe it is 2BB maybe 4BB. At some point they are making an optimally large mistake that we can capitalize on later. When we have nice deep stacks the earlier we can get them committed the easier it is to get our stacks in.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Dump the minraise. Look for the largest error you can induce preflop. We're looking for something to leverage later in the hand when our edge is highest. You want action when you hit a hand. Commit them early and you have something to work with. You can still control pot-size on later streets if necessary.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The key is understanding your edge and how it relates to your opponents. If you are going to be outplayed, wtf are you doing building pots with speculative hands? And if you aren't building on both speculative and strong... you are giving away information to observants. I would expect an expert to be able to drop down a couple levels and exploit the hell out of most of us on the early streets. They are going to bump it, or pound it, early and outplay you for larger pots than you are used to every time.

I'm over the semantics. I want optimal. Typically that is more than a minraise down here. Building big pots is certainly a viable strategy. That is always going to involve getting as much money in there early as we can.

Just two bits. Lots of ways to skin a donk at NL, imho.

Mike

[Ness3]

I didn't read your post and didn't read this thread.

min raising is cool. its the new b3b.

ness

[Mik1w]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a big problem here. Hands like suited connectors are much more trap hands in a limped family pot in NL. In limit this is no problem, because if you make a really good second best hand (like the bottom of a straight or trips no kicker or something) you're losses will be capped. In no limit, it is a much better hand to play short-handed in a raised pot, because when you hit your hand 1)you will be pretty sure it is good) 2)you actually have implied odds because someone else more likely has a big hand.

The better way to play these type of hands on the button is to raise with them. If the whole table will call your raise, then I guess you can just call, but be careful about hands like bottom 2 pair or the like (ie Doyle's don't go broke in a limped pot). Also, this is no-limit not limit. An extra 8BBs in the pot is almost meaningless, as this makes the pot the size of a raised pot with one caller.

IMO, this doesn't hurt you a huge amount, but it certainly doesn't help. If you want a bigger pot, play at the next limit up.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the limit up, Im playing a bigger pot every hand. This strategy increases the pot only when it is in my interests.

I didn't realise suited connectors were trap hands. Either they make a big hand and win a big pot, or miss and lose a small one. It's not like you'll be comparing kickers often or drawing dead...

If everyone agrees on the fact that, by min raising, I am increasing a pot size before the flop WITHOUT improving my opponents' hand ranges, why does this not give me an advantage post flop? It's basically putting money in with the edge, and position, and as a bonus not worrying if only better hands call - your raising range beats their limping one; under these circumstances, the min-raise increases your pot equity.

sorry, read more replies later

[Ness3]

[ QUOTE ]
keikiwai thanks, although I'm talking exclusively about pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i should have read this thread.

minraising preflop is pretty stupid. occasionally, i do it from the bb when 230498 people limp--spite. plus, it makes you look like a real donkey.

ness

[Mik1w]

"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

[Ness3]

[ QUOTE ]
"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough. i'll read it now.

[Ness3]

[ QUOTE ]
"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't make a very strong case.

if you minraise preflop in this situation often, many players will just start to make all types of plays at you.

you will win against the limpers immediately often and even more on the flop when you c-bet...the min raise definitely doesn't have this effect.

a normal size raise will build a pot--even better than a minraise!

you will have even less idea where you are against the fishes.