meh, i hate this spot... - Page 3

The Funky Llama · #21 08-04-2006, 01:59 PM

Surf, I think your flop checkraise is fine, but I think calling the flop has a lot of merit when there is a loose fish who will call 2 cold with a lot of hands (he's not folding any pair or straight draw and is probably calling with hands like unpaired Ax with backdoor draws) left to act behind you. Calling in spots like this is underrated. Calling also often prevents you from getting knocked off the best hand if it gets HU with aggro and he decides to 3bet the flop or raise the turn. It also lets him keep bluffing. You can also get away cheaper on bad turns or if the 3rd guy comes alive.

Protection is important, but it totally depends on how often you have the best hand and how many hands there are that fold for 2 but not 1...you also need to weigh this against the advantage of letting aggro keep the lead.

As for the turn, I think checking is the only play.

I think the river is close. I might pay it off because there are still some KQ/QT sort of hands that would fire again. IMO, you definitely need to be calling a 2-T river.

The Bryce · #22 08-04-2006, 02:58 PM

Unfortunately, there are no great answers to such bad situations. Bet / fold, check / call - check / fold and check / call - check / call are all reasonable options. Do whatever leaves you happiest. My only comment would be that in order to check-call twice he would have to bet his busted hands twice about 100% of the time since there are a million ways he could be ahead of you, and since solid players will often not bet with air when you check the turn advertising an intention to showdown.

Rudis · #23 08-04-2006, 08:56 PM

Betting the turn with the intention of not showing down is not the best line imo. Flop c/r is not representing A and a turnbet is the best way to be bluffed. It is NOT a scarecard for him.

poker1O1 · #24 08-04-2006, 09:07 PM

the flop c/r is pretty standard I thought. As for the turn river combo, I'm not feelin the c/c c/f. There really isn't a fav line that stands out. I think it's either b/f, or c/c c/c

mmcd · #25 08-04-2006, 10:51 PM

As long as you were check-calling a river blank, I like your line. That J was ugly.

The Bryce · #26 08-04-2006, 11:13 PM

I don't see what all the comotion is about calling him on a blank river. The pot's not that big. I think I would rather bet and get bluffed half the time putting one bet in than check and put two bets in when I'm going to be good just barely often enough to call the last bet. You calling the turn really shrinks his range on a river bet.

Surf · #27 08-04-2006, 11:21 PM

mmcd, I was calling a blank river.

Bryce, most of the aggro guys in this game will fire both streets if they're going to fire at all, in my experience. This particular hand it's just a matter of the fact that there aren't enough hands left that I beat on the river, b/c he's going to make a value-bet with JT or whatever.

Surf

oreopimp · #28 08-05-2006, 02:02 AM

looks fine. about the turn, the only problem i have with bet/folding is I really have no idea if Im folding the best or worst hand when a aggro player raises me here. If he is somewhat aware he should know that your check is defensive and what that means, but again ppl are retards and cant handread for [censored], but the J is kind of a lame river card for you. If he has KQ or some other random on occasion then well, thats the breaks.

TheMetetron · #29 08-05-2006, 02:52 AM

Agreed with kiddo.

Fold the flop.

Way too many gutshots/pair hands for fishy that he isn't folding to a c/r. Way too many tough spots for aggro to put us in plus way too many combined outs for the both of them.

It's okay to let some hands go, even short-handed.

StellarWind · #30 08-05-2006, 07:09 PM

Easy flop fold with bad relative position. The odds are that someone has made a better pair and even if they haven't they will draw out on you a very large part of the time. Hero's implied odds are a disaster because of his terrible position and because the underpair will lose bigger pots than it wins.

Just to test my intuition I simulated this with PokerStove.

PFR range: top 16%
Limper range: 11th percentile through 45th percentile (this excludes hands he would probably open-raise)

The PFR has 39% equity, the limper has 37%, and Hero has 24%. Ouch.

My line is betfold turn/checkfold river. When 44 is still the best hand the ace will feel to most opponents like the roof is caving in. Hands like QJ will probably fold. A gutshot might call but assuming you survive the 10-out river he will miss the river bluff more often than not. People figure that you are afraid of the ace but that you still plan to call the river with whatever pair you checkraised the flop with. It might occur to Villain to put you on a busted straight draw but that's not a reason to bluff as he usually wins by showing.