1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP

[aejones]

My thoughts on the hand:

My read on Pasterbator is that he is a TAG, pushing LAG at times. I think of the regular TAGs on 1-2 PP, he is probably in the upper echelon. I have him at 21/18 over ~300 hands, and I do know that he likes to 3-bet preflop perhaps more than average. I realize he is probably 3-betting me light on occasion, but it really doesn't effect my play because I'm running at something like 30/20, so he is often correct to 3-bet me light. I have never seen him get out of line though or show down anything ridiculous, so I always assume he's got a pretty strong holding, especially OOP.

The size of his reraise to 24 is fine. It's standard, and I don't like changing it because we're deep. What are you going to make it 40? Blowing me off of my raising hand from the button (..uh, a little bit of a wide range) seems like a mistake unless you are afraid to play postflop. There are other reasons I don't like raising it big, but I'd rather not elaborate. As said previously, I will call the raise to 25 with any two that I would raise to 7 with from the button when we are this deep.

Your options of lines in this hand suck. They are absolutely terrible. I went over every option you had with a friend, and we agreed that nothing was particularly pleasing. That said, once more is said and results are revealed, I will say why I played the hand the way I did, and the range I can have and what he should put me on.

[johnnybeef]

disclaimer: I have talked at great lengths with pasterbator about this hand on aim, I do know the river card, and the results. That said, I did not know them when we had a pretty deep discussion about it. First and foremost, this is a very difficult hand, and to deduce how to properly approach it, we really need to think higher. Namely, think about what you (aejones) puts him on. Preflop, as has been noted, we can deduce that you are more likely to put him on a bigger hand (even though this is obviously not set in stone quite yet.) Nothing has changed on the flop, as his bet is a standard continuation bet that he would make with either 23o or AA. This hand develops so much more deeply on the turn. When p check calls the turn, you have to know that he is very strong given the board, the size of the pot, and the betting sequence. Note that due to the check call, he more than likely is vulnerable, and your most likely read on him is that he is on either AA or JJ. In my prior post in this thread, I had said that I liked a check call on the turn with a blocker on the river. I have changed my mind now that I knew that if I were to check call the turn, the pot would be ~320 and p's stack would be ~240. The river (if the hand would have played out according to the check call turn line like I had suggested) is a very very interesting decision, and it is one that seperates the men from the boys imo. I am not going to spoil the fun for all of the readers, but I have inside info that tells me that the river bricked off. Given this card, and what you likely know that we have, I like checking and folding, because you more than likely know that we have a set, and more than likely know that we can't fold it. As such, you won't be betting anything that we can beat.

Now, I do have a few qualms with some of the things said in your response, but I will post those once the results are posted as if p would have raised more pf, you would have played the hand differently, and it would have made a VERY difficult hand play substantially easier.

[zeero3]

Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

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I am curious why you say this? I am by no means an expert at playing this deep but it makes sense to me that since you are defining your hand to your opponent by reraising, giving him the implied odds to stack you is a mistake.

[aejones]

From Pasterbator's point of view, I don't like checking and folding at all. I don't see where you can really argue for a fold, unless you are a true nit like Woolygimp.

I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]


I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you mean that my decisions were bad, or my situations were bad. If my decisions were bad, i'd like you to explain your thoughts. If you mean the situations sucked, i completely agree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would like to hear your thoughts on the hand, from your POV if you would. I'm very interested.

FWIW, i still think wouldnt want to reraise much more than i did PF. If anyone else wants to chime in on that, i'd be interested.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
From Pasterbator's point of view, I don't like checking and folding at all. I don't see where you can really argue for a fold, unless you are a true nit like Woolygimp.

I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am by no means a nit, and I feel that my post above should more than addequately explain why I like a check fold on the river (and for what it's worth, I was right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) Also, as per the preflop reraise, if he can't get away from a set when you turn a flush, then he needs to play in a manner that makes his decisions on later streets easier. Reraising bigger is one of those. Raising bigger preflop (which is my standard regardless of what I repop when stacks are deep) if a leak at all is a small leak. Stacking off 2 buyins with a set against a flush is a significant leak. Now, out of curiousity, how would you play this one from pasterbator's point of view?

[cero_z]

Hi PB,

I understand (or agree with) little of what I've read here, except from aejones, but maybe that's why I sometimes struggle at 3/6 and below.

Somebody said 30/18 is unequivocally bad at these stakes; I don't get it.

Somebody said aejones can never have a flush here, presumably because of the pre-flop action. What Lag isn't calling 18 more in position against a tight player who's played back at him a lot, when they're both 200BBs deep? I call with any 2 here (and I mean ANY 2). I'm not saying aejones has a flush, but he certainly could have one. Calling the 18 in position with a wide range doesn't even seem loose to me; that's just good poker.

My thoughts on the hand are, the turn card sucks, so you need to think about how you expect aejones to play a big hand, and a bluff/semi-bluff against you, in a key pot. Then, bet, and read his response.

Also, maybe it's minor, but I would bet full pot on the flop here, in keeping with the notion that I may be blowing him off his hand with AK/AQ-type holdings; I think it will encourage a lot of LAGs to get tricky.

Finally, I think you need to be at least 400bbs deep before you use 3 consecutive e's in your subject line. All caps is just egregious. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi PB,

I understand (or agree with) little of what I've read here, except from aejones, but maybe that's why I sometimes struggle at 3/6 and below.

Somebody said 30/18 is unequivocally bad at these stakes; I don't get it.

Somebody said aejones can never have a flush here, presumably because of the pre-flop action. What Lag isn't calling 18 more in position against a tight player who's played back at him a lot, when they're both 200BBs deep? I call with any 2 here (and I mean ANY 2). I'm not saying aejones has a flush, but he certainly could have one. Calling the 18 in position with a wide range doesn't even seem loose to me; that's just good poker.

My thoughts on the hand are, the turn card sucks, so you need to think about how you expect aejones to play a big hand, and a bluff/semi-bluff against you, in a key pot. Then, bet, and read his response.

Also, maybe it's minor, but I would bet full pot on the flop here, in keeping with the notion that I may be blowing him off his hand with AK/AQ-type holdings; I think it will encourage a lot of LAGs to get tricky.

Finally, I think you need to be at least 400bbs deep before you use 3 consecutive e's in your subject line. All caps is just egregious. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thank you for your response. From this point on, i will never use the 3rd E in my title.

I see where you're coming from, and thats almost exactly how i felt during the hand. I thought that he was calling PF there with pretty much any 2 that he raised with, mostly because he's on the button. Now, should i be raising more PF to combat that? I didnt think so, but maybe im off base with this.

From your post, i gather that my turn check isnt just bad, but awful because it puts me in an awkward spot for the rest of the hand. If i lead the turn, i get a lot more information than if i check. If i do check, hes betting both a bluff and a flush, but likely checking behind with a draw. Should he be betting AxKd or AxQd on this turn, or is it an easy check.

I'm trying to look at this hand from both sides, hence all the questions [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious why you say this? I am by no means an expert at playing this deep but it makes sense to me that since you are defining your hand to your opponent by reraising, giving him the implied odds to stack you is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that OPs reraising range is sufficently wide that he's not playing w/ his cards up PF. Just because they're 200bb deep doesn't mean that aejones can call profitably w/ any too (LOL if he thinks he can).

Also, why do you guys think that 200bb in a reraised pot is deep?