blind defense, ace on turn...

[mscags]

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

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I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


What do you think?


Adam

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I don't like it, I think against a true LAG you will get raised a very high percentage of the time on the turn. That's what LAGs do. Why put in two bets and not get to showdown when you can put in the same amount and see one? Checking has a good chance to induce a bluff from a LAG as well. I really think that c/c is the optimal line here.
I will say that against some passive opponents, bet/fold is probably more correct.

[Adam Stewart]

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

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I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


What do you think?


Adam

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I don't like it, I think against a true LAG you will get raised a very high percentage of the time on the turn. That's what LAGs do. Why put in two bets and not get to showdown when you can put in the same amount and see one? Checking has a good chance to induce a bluff from a LAG as well. I really think that c/c is the optimal line here.
I will say that against some passive opponents, bet/fold is probably more correct.

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The point is we *are* only still putting in 2 bets to see a showdown.

If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.

In other words, if he bets the river after raising the turn, he most likely has us beat. For those times that he's raising the turn for a free showdown, our line still works, and still only costs us two bets.

Now, if we just let the guy bluff, and we plan to check/call the turn and river ... there's no guarantee he'll bet the river. Therefore, villain is allowed to play more perfectly, so to speak. He's just got out of having to pay two bets for a showdown with an inferior hand.


Adam

[Guy McSucker]

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If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.


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I am really interested to know if other people think this is true. My expectation would be that someone like him who loves to bet and bluff and raise and fire and shoot at pots will keep the ball rolling on the river regardless. However, I suck at poker, so I am usually wrong in my imaginings.

Guy.

[MAxx]

-IMO, this type of player would more often than not keep the ball rolling. Just my opinion.

[Subfallen]

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If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.


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I am really interested to know if other people think this is true.

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Nope. If I raised this turn as a bluff, I would bet the river 100% of the time. (Unless I know the BB is likely to lead the turn with a naked 6 but check-call his pairs.)

As for the OP's question. Since there's the straight draw out there, a lot of LAG's will auto-bet any 2 just trying to charge the naked 6's. That's an argument for check-calling.

Nonetheless, if I have a weak image, I will bet-calldown this turn against a LAG expecting to induce him to bluff far more than he should.

Edit - bet-fold is BY FAR THE WORST CHOICE. Almost every hand Villain bluffs with is really a ~6-out semi-bluff, so he only needs you to fold 15% of the time to make a profit. If you're folding hands as strong as K7, it's not even close---Villain should raise any two and make a huge profit.

[Azalin]

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Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero

Villain is 34/19/1.8/36 over 13388 hands. Gimme a plan for the turn and a plan (if you see the river) for a K and a blank.

Krishan

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For me its standard to check call the turn and river in those kind of situations. I try for a check raise on the river if i improve cause he will not call a river bet without an A but he will call the check raise with an A. Having said that i wish to add that when i have a low TP (like a 7 in this example) i prefer to bet call the turn and check fold to a river bet. If my pair is 8 or better (which is usually cause i dont defend with less than K7s in BB) i take the first line. Also i decide which to take depending on the specific player (particularly his "att to steal" and "bet river" stats).

[StellarWind]

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Are there hands people are check/folding on the turn?

Taking a c/c c/c line sounds good in theory and all, but isn't it pretty obvious you're going to showdown? I've only played 15K hands above 5/10, but a reasonable opponent is going to be putting me on a hand I'm not folding when I check there. I can't imagine that it won't be more obvious to a reasonable 20/40 opponent

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The board is full of straight draws in the blind zone. The BB semibluff checkraising the flop and checking when the ace hits looks extremely natural to me. Villain gives free cards at his peril.

Expect Button to protection bet almost any hand he can show. It's very important for (e.g.) KJ to represent that Hero's 10-out gutshot is actually only a 4-outer in hopes it might fold.

Expect Button to bluff many of the hands he cannot show. Actually it's not exactly a bluff. Hands like J9 are taking two bites at the apple. Maybe you'll fold and maybe they can actually win the free showdown versus some busted draw.

Bottom line: why risk an extremely unpleasant raise when Villain will usually bet your hand for you? Worst case he takes a free card and steals 3-6 outs instead of you folding him out. Much more often you either save a bet or get the 3-6 outer to take a swipe at you.

Having checkcalled, you should lead the river if you hit. Otherwise I checkcall again unless I feel I can convincingly represent to the right opponent that I rivered my straight.

[helpmeout]

I bet that is for sure, whether i fold to a raise or calldown depends on how i view the opponent.

[gaming_mouse]

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I check/call twice and checkraise the river if I improve. I cannot overstate how much I hate bet/folding this turn. LAG 101 chapter 1 page 1 says "people are scared of aces, you should pretend like you have one as often as possible"

-DeathDonkey

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i love this.

[Wynton]

I think that the Ace is especially bluffable because it's very unlikely hero happens to have one, after raising the flop (and not 3-betting preflop).