Is it ever correct to go all in on a draw?

[mason55]

I showed two situations where it's perfectly good to go in on a draw and then suggested the OP might want to investigate why this was not obvious to him. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

[Maulik]

sudic,

In your hand I would check the turn and move in if you hit a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or an Ace.

[djoyce003]

big difference between CALLING all-in and GOING all-in. Here you are calling all in with 1 to come on a draw...that's significantly worse than a push. With a push you get fold equity, with a call you don't.

[4_2_it]

OP,

There are only two reasons to go all-in:

1) You are certain you have the best hand at the moment

2) The odds are correct for you to call with a draw or you are even a favorite with your draw (i.e. OESFD on the flop)

I do not beleive that either of these criteria exist in your example.

[Bco1/75]

i bet someone has or allready has mentioned but pushing with a draw is fine, but you need to have FOLD EQUITY. Which is the chance that you will win the pot right there if everyone folds. Calling an all in bet with a draw is ALMOST always -EV (fold equity = 0). Example on your hand:

When the flop action gets to you there is 11.10 in the pot and you have $17.5 left. By pushing you are announcing I have a flush or nut flush draw. You need to estimate the chances you opponents will fold. Here I say they are low say 20%....Thus:
20% of the time you will win $11.10
80% of the time you will have a show down. To make it simple assume your A is no good. In that you will catch your flush 36% of the time (if no one else has hearts, I assume that there are at least one heart in each players hand so it would actually be 28%, 7 outs) 25.6% of the time you win $46.10 and 54.4% you will lose $17.5
Resulting in:
$11.10 (.2)+$46.10(.256)-$17.5(.544)= +$4.5


Of course you will never get someone to lay down a flush like this thus fold equity is probally much less than 20%.

[sudic]

Thanks to all who defended me, but I'm a big boy with tough skin and I really don't need any defence.

I have no problem with a stern reply.

Just try to include something in the message that teaches me something!

I really didn't mean never ever call.

Its obvious that there has to be some situation where its mathematically corect to call!

I asked because I ran across the following 'lesson' in
NO-LIMIT TEXAS HOLD'EM by Daugherty/McEvoy (page 233).

Its a similar situation.
****

$1-$2 blind no-limit game.

You have only $25 left with $2 in the BB.

Your Hand:
Ah 9h

5 players limp.

You check.

Flop: Kh 8h 3s

Action AL to your left bets $12 and everyone calls.

Pot now has $72.

You have $20 left.

What's your move?

Analysis:
You have flopped the nut flush draw with five other players
in the pot. If you call, you will only have $8 left. This
is a good opportunity to gamble.
Our suggested play is to raise the rest of your chips-go all in....
*****

Any comments?

[Pouncer]

Get a new book. You have $25 pre-flop, post a $2 blind, and end up with $20. Did Daugherty/McEvoy buy drinks during the hand?

[Pouncer]

Also, that example is an illustration of the criteria mentioned in the posts of 4_2_it, BCO1/75, and others.

[mason55]

suidc -

The idea of this lesson is that you have 5 people putting money into the pot on the flop. They have all put 12 in and will all obviously call your 8. Since there are 5 people you are making money when they all call your all in. The flush will hit more than 1 in 5 times so you want to get all your money in there. This is a profitable situation for you.

The idea of the hand is that they have all called 12 already, thus you can be sure they'll call 8 more. Since you're drawing to the nuts, get it in there.

You see this a lot in limit. You flop the nut flush draw and check. Someone to your left bets, 6 people call, then you check raise because with 6 people you're making money on each bet you put in.

[sudic]

Oh I see!

I didn't have the right number of people in the hand therefore I wasn't getting the correct odds to go all in!