God and Free Will

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Non theists have no problem, as the initial assumption of an omni3 God is invalid, any problems with the consequences of this assumption are a non-issue.

The Omni3 assumptions are confusing and lead to logical problems depending on how they are defined.

It is much clearer to avoid words like omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and instead just say what the being can are can’t do. Rather than letting confusing ambiguous potentially logically inconstant words that you don’t really understand do the work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's more difficult than that. Does omnipotent mean able to do whatever he wants, can he chose not to know things?

Does knowing everything mean knowing what you will do or just what you've done.

Can god make the world non-determinstic if he wants to?

chez

[Sharkey]

As far as God’s unlimited knowledge coexisting with free will is concerned, there is no contradiction between the following propositions:

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

2. God knows everything about you.

[spoohunter]

You are hitting upon the bigger issue here which is that omniscient and omnipotent are mutually exclusive. There is an answer to the age old theological riddle, which is can God microwave a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it? The answer : by theorizing God you also say "no burrito can exist that he cannot eat".

By saying "omnipotent" you are saying "he cannot possess omniscience" after all, all powerful means being able to do anything and omniscience limits what God can do (since he knows exactly what he will do).

But really... the whole concept of religion and God is so retarded I don't really know why I am bothering to respond. There is no God people wake up.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]

Does knowing everything mean knowing what you will do

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm..if you know what you will do, then you don't have free will. If you don't know what you will do then you don't know the outcome and you're just bumbling along with the rest of us.

luckyme

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
You are hitting upon the bigger issue here which is that omniscient and omnipotent are mutually exclusive. There is an answer to the age old theological riddle, which is can God microwave a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it? The answer : by theorizing God you also say "no burrito can exist that he cannot eat".

By saying "omnipotent" you are saying "he cannot possess omniscience" after all, all powerful means being able to do anything and omniscience limits what God can do (since he knows exactly what he will do).

[/ QUOTE ]
Its faily easy to make the concepts consistent (and therefore meaningful) but many people refuse to.

If the definitions are inconsistent then anything is possible includiong free-will. Make them consistent and we can see what follows.

None of this is anything to do with god's existence.

chez

[guesswest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Non theists have no problem, as the initial assumption of an omni3 God is invalid, any problems with the consequences of this assumption are a non-issue.

The Omni3 assumptions are confusing and lead to logical problems depending on how they are defined.

It is much clearer to avoid words like omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and instead just say what the being can are can’t do. Rather than letting confusing ambiguous potentially logically inconstant words that you don’t really understand do the work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's more difficult than that. Does omnipotent mean able to do whatever he wants, can he chose not to know things?

Does knowing everything mean knowing what you will do or just what you've done.

Can god make the world non-determinstic if he wants to?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

3 of the many reasons why I don't think this idea of god makes any sense.

But the problem isn't understanding what the terms mean - it's with reconciling them with each other. Seems impossible to me that anyone could, but maybe I am missing something.

[guesswest]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as God’s unlimited knowledge coexisting with free will is concerned, there is no contradiction between the following propositions:

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

2. God knows everything about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there is no contradiction there, but that wasn't the initial question. The missing part in your equation is that god created you, and thus your actions (and he must know what these will be) - so how is it you not him who chooses those actions?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Non theists have no problem, as the initial assumption of an omni3 God is invalid, any problems with the consequences of this assumption are a non-issue.

The Omni3 assumptions are confusing and lead to logical problems depending on how they are defined.

It is much clearer to avoid words like omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and instead just say what the being can are can’t do. Rather than letting confusing ambiguous potentially logically inconstant words that you don’t really understand do the work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's more difficult than that. Does omnipotent mean able to do whatever he wants, can he chose not to know things?

Does knowing everything mean knowing what you will do or just what you've done.

Can god make the world non-determinstic if he wants to?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

3 of the many reasons why I don't think this idea of god makes any sense.

But the problem isn't understanding what the terms mean - it's with reconciling them with each other. Seems impossible to me that anyone could, but may be missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't see the problem.
Omnipotent means that god can do whatever he wants. That means if he makes the world P then it is necessarily that not-P isn't the case (otherwise god hasn't done what he wanted).

Oniscient means being able to know anything that is knowable.

Omnipresecent adds nothing as far as I can see.

chez

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as God’s unlimited knowledge coexisting with free will is concerned, there is no contradiction between the following propositions:

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

2. God knows everything about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there is no contradiction there, but that wasn't the initial question. The missing part in your equation is that god created you, and thus your actions (and he must know what these will be) - so how is it you not him who chooses those actions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what your question really comes down to is: How is it possible for God to create free will?

That is a mystery I don’t expect a solution to in this lifetime.

[guesswest]

I meant reconciling them in terms of making such an entity internally consistent so that it could feasibly exist - we've only scratched the surface in terms of all the contradictions that'd involve. I think it's fairly easy to come up with a definition of the independent attributes.