Straight flush draw too aggressive?

[martybonus]

welceom to the forums.

and good on you for posting a good 'learning' hand.

flop and PF play are fine.

turn play is catastrophically wrong. maybe i'm missing something, but this looks diabolical to me.

the card that completes your nut flush is 4.2:1 against coming in. basic pot odds dictate that you should only be calling or betting such that you're getting better than 4.2:1 for your wager.

the way you played the turn resulted in you contributing about 25% of the pot (ie about 4BB of a 16BB pot). You're only winning it 20% of the time. This is an error.

also, you can't cant on 3 players coming along for the ride like this. usually aggressive betting knocks players out. this means you pay more like 40% of the pot, making it an even worse mistake if your flush draw only comes through 20% of the time.

so good job flop and PF, but please please please don't play your flush draws like this on the turn in the future. see my post (pg 3 of the forums i think) or any of numerous other better sources if you want more detail.

but for your own sake, don't ever do this again.

[CrMenace]

*grunch*

I'm cool with the play up until the turn 3-bet. You have plenty of outs to call here, but I don't think you have the pot equity to be raising, even if you know SB is coming along. UTG is telling you he has a very strong hand with his c/r.

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop to get rid of the blinds - plays different after that

[/ QUOTE ]

Which 5-out draws are we trying to protect from?

[Bona]

Welcome!!!

I think you are balanced precariously between calling and folding this hand preflop. I would usually fold it depending on the table and the situation. (But I play too tight sometimes)

I think you have to raise the flop. Even though you are hesitant because you have no kicker, you need to push this and see what pushes back. Call a three bet but not a cap IMO

This turn would have played differently if you raise the flop but as played: You have 12 solid outs (flush and straight) A outs have some value but discounted a lot I think. And finally, since it is 2 to you, we have to think we are behind. So we have pot odds to call but I doubt if we should raise. The raise isn't going to make anybody go away and might get capped while we are behind. I call 2 here and hope it stays at two. If raised, and even if capped we have to call with nut flush draw on the unpaired board.

River card is awful. I don't really know whether to call or fold this. I think we are behind most of the time but at 18+:1 pot odds SB has been calling down so do we win here one in 19 or 20 times? Maybe with these players we do. It probably isn't very much +/- EV whether you fold or call. SO: I make a crying (and possibly incorrect) call because of pot size.

Again welcome, look forward to hearing more from you.

[Big Folder]

1. raise this flop. You have TPNK, but a backdoor flush and straight draw and 5 outs to two pair or better(some of the ace outs might not be good, but might be chop outs). You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

2. The turn is too aggressive. You have good equity, but generally raising with draws on the turn is wrong.

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

[Big Folder]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, mid or bottom pair. If you call the people behind you will be getting 8:1, enough to peel with a pair and 5 outs to improve. Raise

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will protect your hand from people calling with mid-bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I know what a mid-bottom pair is, but I don't think they have the outs to call even for one bet... unless they have a decent BDFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, mid or bottom pair. If you call the people behind you will be getting 8:1, enough to peel with a pair and 5 outs to improve. Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

So mid or bottom pair doesn't have to discount any outs?

[EGO]

*grunch*

Slightly tight, I like it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Standard pre-flop.

Flop: We aren't quite getting the pot odds we need to draw to 3-outs to two pair and a backdoor flush draw, but if the big blind is passive and might pad the pot without raising, then I could see letting one slide off here.

Turn: You picked up your flush draw. Take the free card. Somebody probably has another ace, and my friend, they are all better than yours. When UTG check-raises, it sends off an alarm bell in my head. I think our equity here is a little less than 33%, so I just call the turn check-raise.

River: Sadly, I fold here. UTG is highly unlikely to check-raise with a hand that we beat on the turn, and we can beat almost nothing here. Of course, in my version of how the hand would have played, the pot would be much smaller.

Before calling a river bet, ask yourself the following question:

What could my opponent bet with that I could beat?

Also, realize the the small blind is still in the hand, and the villian proabably expects him to call. That's what he does. He calls. He's a calling station. For all intents and purposes, this pot is protected.

If a person knows they are going to be called, then it's a safe bet that they aren't bluffing.

[Guitierez]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the advice which I appreciate very much.
Indeed it was a mistake to 3bet the c/r on turn, maybe too much optimism about my 12 outs, maybe just steaming of being pushed around before by vilain....I could have saved the river bet considering that SB would call anyways and I'd seen what have me beat. Incredibly he was calling down with low pair/no kicker.