meh, i hate this spot...

[lil']

I would have played the hand exactly the same way, but it sure doesn't feel good. I guess that is what happens when you play a baby pair out of position.

The flop cr is the only play if you think your hand may be best. No way can we let the limper hang in there, and he will a LOT if we call.

By the river, what can you beat?

[Dendrite]

[ QUOTE ]

By the river, what can you beat?


[/ QUOTE ]
KQ KT QT if the guy really is aggro

And of course he has about a zillion other hands that beat us.

[disjunction]

I play the flop the same and usually checkfold the turn. I don't mind betting the turn and checkfolding given the next chance, either. That's what I do if I think I may still be ahead.

Edit: In practice I wind up doing the latter more often because often feel I'm ahead. Yes, since he's aggressive I'm often going to get outplayed here, but it's just a bad spot, I don't know what his next action means, and so I don't have much choice.

[sweetjazz]

I think check/calling the turn is the worst option. I would either bet/fold or check/fold. The A is going to scare him as much as it scares you. Few players actually pull the trigger and raise with JT in this spot, and given the way the game plays, it's a questionable semibluff at best, since K5 or 44 will often call you down anyway.

BTW, I don't think a flop fold is that bad. And calling is another viable option. Building a big pot with an underpair OOP is far from ideal, even though sometimes it is the most EV play.

[Surf]

[ QUOTE ]
I think check/calling the turn is the worst option. I would either bet/fold or check/fold. The A is going to scare him as much as it scares you. Few players actually pull the trigger and raise with JT in this spot, and given the way the game plays, it's a questionable semibluff at best, since K5 or 44 will often call you down anyway.

BTW, I don't think a flop fold is that bad. And calling is another viable option. Building a big pot with an underpair OOP is far from ideal, even though sometimes it is the most EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I just overestimate how often I'm getting bluffraised on this particular turn. It feels like every time I lead into an Ace OOP the aggro player pops me. I 3bet once with an underpair out of curiosity and got an instafold, so obv i'm getting played back at sometimes.

Surf

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think check/calling the turn is the worst option. I would either bet/fold or check/fold. The A is going to scare him as much as it scares you. Few players actually pull the trigger and raise with JT in this spot, and given the way the game plays, it's a questionable semibluff at best, since K5 or 44 will often call you down anyway.

BTW, I don't think a flop fold is that bad. And calling is another viable option. Building a big pot with an underpair OOP is far from ideal, even though sometimes it is the most EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I just overestimate how often I'm getting bluffraised on this particular turn. It feels like every time I lead into an Ace OOP the aggro player pops me. I 3bet once with an underpair out of curiosity and got an instafold, so obv i'm getting played back at sometimes.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Surf re: bluffing frequencies on turn scare cards.

[kapw7]

I think the flop is a c-r or c-f situation. If you check-call and give "fishy" correct odds to call with 62o then you will only have yourself to blame.

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I just overestimate how often I'm getting bluffraised on this particular turn. It feels like every time I lead into an Ace OOP the aggro player pops me. I 3bet once with an underpair out of curiosity and got an instafold, so obv i'm getting played back at sometimes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and that's why I said you are going to get outplayed. But I think you take it down more than 1 out of every 5, and I don't think that happens if you check-call.

I was going to re-edit and say that part of the issue is which 2 big bets do you think you can believe most, the 2nd bet on the river or the two on the turn. That's part of it. But if they are equally believeable, I would lean towards protecting my hand.

Also, if your read is that you will get bluff-raised too much, that opens up a second path to making money once you bet. I 3-bet underpairs from time to time. It depends how the games are playing lately.

[Dendrite]

Something I don't understand: If you think that villian bluff-raises scary turn cards too often, why not bet/call the turn with the intention of inducing a turn raise from a hand with 6 outs? Surely putting 2 BB in on the turn with 6 outs and then bluffing the river improved or not has to be a big mistake.

Or do you think that the average laggro villian bluff-raises enough to make bet/folding a losing play but not enough to make your bet/call an exploit against him? If so, how did a guy like this balance his hand range? I'm guessing he plays off of instinct.. Or am I completely missing something here?

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
Something I don't understand: If you think that villian bluff-raises scary turn cards too often, why not bet/call the turn with the intention of inducing a turn raise from a hand with 6 outs? Surely putting 2 BB in on the turn with 6 outs and then bluffing the river improved or not has to be a big mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the assumption is that we don't think he will do it too too often. His frequency will be close to unexploitable. In essence he could be doing something like taking his equity when he has the ace, and spreading it over his whole range of hands.