Minraising pre flop. WHY I don't think it's all-that-bad!

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

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this move is really bad.

[xwillience]

My thinking is... its a tell. if you more than min raise people are going to know you like your hand less. if you min raise people are going to know you want to build a pot. a lot will still call like idiots but to an observant player its a tell.

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is... its a tell. if you more than min raise people are going to know you like your hand less. if you min raise people are going to know you want to build a pot. a lot will still call like idiots but to an observant player its a tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not serious are you? People min-raise with absolute trash sometimes, and sometimes w/ strong hands. You have to put it into your notes which villain does which, because (at least at 25NL) they're both prevalent.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

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this move is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

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this move is really bad.

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No it's not.

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so when its limped to you in the bb, do you open push?

yeah I love pot committing opponents with only a 1 bb investment.

[cbloom]

Many top tournament players use the min-raise preflop effectively (Helmuth, Goehring, others, most of the small ball LAG types use small raises preflop). Against tight+passive+bad typical live tournament players it's a very strong weapon, because they will play very predictably against any raise preflop and often fold the pot to a cbet, and you're risking the minimum to steal the blinds and antes. If someone is going to fold the blinds to a min raise, or let you take the lead in the hand just because you're min raising and min betting, then min betting is awesome. Online against crazy donks and calling stations and LAGs I don't think it really has much value.

[not_da_nizzles]

As soon as someone figures out that you're doing this with small pairs and suited connectors then they will re-pot it PF and bet the pot on nearly any flop with any two. You'll fold because you usually you miss. If you do hit then you're probably not going to get paid since villain re-raised you PF with trash. Villain will just shut down if he gets called on the flop since he knows that you hit the flop hard.

Min-raising PF in the manner you're describing is bad because you're representing a weak hand and asking to be isolated by a good player. Have fun with that.

mj

[Mik1w]

[ QUOTE ]
OP: here is the reason why your OP logic doesnt work. a raise with a hand that does well in multiway pot is a very important weapon in limit hold em. this is because there is a betting limit, which means that you dont have all that much time to get your opponents to get their money in. another result of the betting limit is that if the pot is too small to warrent a call from them (from their perspective-- it depends on the cards they have at the time). Thus a PF raise makes the pot bigger, and lets you price yourself (or them) into the pot when you get a favorable flop.

In NLHE, however, we have a concept known as implied odds. if you hit a flop you like, you have access to their entire stack already, its not as important to make the pot big enough to hook them. you hook by betting an amount you think they will call.

Plus at NLHE players sit with 100 bet stacks, so the difference between a 5 way 5 bet stack and a 5 way 10 bet stack is not very significant.

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I understand this point, but the number of times you hit a flop compared to the number of times you take an opponent's whole stack is so low, I think the double sized pot is more than a minor change to profitable decisions you make post flop.

The idea of this minraise is to magnify your postflop decision profits because you're putting yourself at an advantage against hands that simply meet only limping criteria; you're imprvong your range while not improving theirs (as they have odds, whatever they called before theyre calling again)

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of this minraise is to magnify your postflop decision profits because you're putting yourself at an advantage against hands that simply meet only limping criteria; you're imprvong your range while not improving theirs (as they have odds, whatever they called before theyre calling again)

[/ QUOTE ]

As cbloom pointed out, the real advantages of the min-bet are information and control vs. predictable opponents.

Like I said in one of my previous responses, I've seen LAGs do this. They min-bet to test the waters and then on the next street they pot or 2X pot. It's very effective if no-on plays back at you.... which will eventually happen and many of these LAGs know how to bluff but not how to fold.

[ajmargarine]

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so when its limped to you in the bb, do you open push?

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apples and oranges.

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yeah I love pot committing opponents with only a 1 bb investment.

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what?

75% of the time I take down 11 bb's uncontested. If called, 5% of the time I am an 80-20 dog, which is cancelled out by the 5% of the time I'll be called and am an 80-20 fave. The other 15% of the time I am going to be at worst a 55-45 fave, with probably a few more 80-20 faves.

4 players have shown me their hand strength, 3 of them twice. One donk has minraised from the SB a field of limpers, not a show of strength. 11bb's is a pot worth grabbing, IMO. Knowing I miss my set 6/7, it's a good place to take it down. I had TT btw.