Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[Our House]

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Quick questions for those who say "it's available to everyone"....

A few months ago, there was a well known site (I forgot the name) that was looking to implement HUDs into their software for all players to have. What do you think of that? Yay or Nay? I would assume Nay.

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This wouldn't really matter much. Bad players will make no sense of stats. Good players will. Bad players will not become good players because they see their VPIP is 40.

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Hi Betadecay,

I'm quoting this because it is directly related to the OP. Too many in this thread have skirted the issue with tangents. I'm also guilty of this sidetracking.

OP was referring to the impact of software on online poker. He mistakenly mentioned PokerTracker and later clarified that it wasn't PT itself, but the consequencial programs that feed off of it. HUDs are just part of that. I see that Josh had also replied to this thread.

As a side note to Josh:
I don't begrudge you, your product, your support, or your efforts. You deserves every penny you make and then some.

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Bad players will make no sense of stats. Good players will.

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This is really where the discrepancy lies between posters. It's not as cut and dry as bad players/good players. There are many levels in between. Allow me to explain.....

When it comes to in-play software (HUDs are the best example, although there are others), everyone benefits differently. As a general rule, (forget individual cases and how people interpret information for a second) on average; the better you play, the less software tools will benefit you. There is much less room for improvement when you approach the winrate ceiling.

For example, on average HUDs can:

- Make a 1BB loser into a breakeven player.
- Make a breakeven player into a 0.75BB winner.
- Make a 1BB winner into a 1.5BB winner.
- Make a 2BB winner into a 2.25BB winner.
- Make a 3BB winner into a 3.1BB winner.

The reason this happens is because the poker learning curve is NOT symmetrical. There is a [censored]-ton of more room for improvement when you are a 1BB loser than there is when you are a 3BB winner. HUDs, among other aids, will help bridge the winrate gap and are therefore acting as an equalizer. The learning curve slows down considerably when you get to the top. In-play software tools are clearly a detriment to better players. Those who don't realize this are either missing the math or are part of the breakeven/losing crowd.

FWIW, I don't claim to be the best poker player. I have been playing for 13 years total and a little over 3 years online. I was a 1.5BB winner before any Pokertracker add-on tools existed. I can also use these tools to catch up to 3BB winners, but the numbers game won't allow me to benefit. There are soooo many more breakeven players than there are 3BB winners, and I'm positive that these tools are hurting my earn rather than boosting it. If sites don't do something about things, the future can only become worse. I see no reason that a player who's only playing for 6 months should be anywhere close to as good as I am just because his friend gave him a mined database and he spent $80 on PT/PA. No reason at all. He may not be better than me or have an edge over me, but I'd still like to call that an unfair advantage.

Issues of T&C, morals, ethics, etc. aren't relevant to OP's argument. They only exist as justifiable defenses to each person's stance on using tools. None of that changes the FACT that the best poker players are better off without aids and the not-so-good, but decent players aren't. Because, after all, the game we're playing IS poker.

[crazy canuck]

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Yoou have to accept the T&C of a site before downloading the software/creating an account. As I've said before in the thread, their ignorance is not our fault.


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Are you saying using bots is not cheating if it is not againsth T&As? Do you think most 2+2-ers think this?

[HesseJam]

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I am ...back.

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That's why it's a grey area. You have AWESOME notes that are quickly available. But you still do not have information that is not otherwise available.

I happen to think that's OK.

If you really don't see the difference between that and a bot I can't help out anymore.

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You need to think a bit more about the terms "data" and "information".

PT uses data, which is available to everybody at the table. It then compiles it into percentages which allows you easily to attach a meaning to it and thus become information which is not available for everybody.

Example: You watch a hand and UTG+1 cold calls and UTG raise. The pot is taken down before show down. This is a datapoint. It has little meaning. To turn it into information you have to use the memory and caculatory capacity of your brain and observe many hands of UTG+1 until you arrive at some sort of information, ie "how often does he do it". Then, if you now know, that he cold calls raises 50% of the time little effort is needed to attach the meaning to it and you have information.

Same is a simple chess program without a database. It just calculates the next moves based on the information which is available to everybody who takes a look at the board. Given time and being ready to invest the effort an average intelligent person could do the same. Still, it would be unethical to use it without telling the competitor.

The solution to all this is very easy:

Poker sites provide for handhistories through e-mail upon request. You'll get the e-mail 1 hour after your request. You receive your seat number with your ID, the other Players are just named seat 1-10. You then can import the hands and study your game. Easy, isn't it?

[ShakeZula06]

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Yoou have to accept the T&C of a site before downloading the software/creating an account. As I've said before in the thread, their ignorance is not our fault.


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Are you saying using bots is not cheating if it is not againsth T&As? Do you think most 2+2-ers think this?

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Yes that's exactly what I saying. Is it cheating to use a aluminum bat in a college baseball game?

I don't know if most 2p2ers agree. I don't base my opinons on what the group thinks, I base them on logic.

[PlayaHata]

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I don't know if most 2p2ers agree. I don't base my opinons on what the group thinks, I base them MY DEFINITION of logic.

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and this where the problem lays. certain players will continue to find the 'next big program' to give them the edge, even if its the slightest edge. and thus, players will continue to use different programs that are altering the game of poker and since no one has the same definition of ethics or the same logic, what i may consider to be unethical and unfair you fine completely fair and ethical. so when that new program comes out that can make judgements on what a player holds based on statistical evidence of player profiling that IS allowed by party, many people in this thread would get the program ASAP. because, as you said, it is not a matter of ethics, as definitions are subjective, but what is allowed by the site and what is beneficial to oneself. THIS is the future of online poker.

[PlayaHata]

and i am at work, i cant check the thread 24/7.

[PlayaHata]

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How is this:

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you are strung up on the poker tracker part. i am discussing how the usage of poker tracker is bringing internet poker to its certain demise (the bigger picture)

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In any way a response to this:
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I enjoy debates and intellectual arguements. Is that a problem? I dont care if people agree with me, I actually prefer to have people disagree with me and have an INTELLECTUAL arguement.

i guess my question is, why cant i?

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You can, obviously you are, no one has said you can't or shouldn't. I'm curious WHY?

You've said that you want to have an intellectual discussion, most people would want to have these discussions on something they care about.

You also keep writing the same thing over and over and over. I think anyone who is reading this thread sees your point. But are you are considering theirs, how is that an intellectual discussion?
Do you agree that something you may find unetichal others may find ethical? Or is that not possible for 2 rationale people?

You hate PT and think it's unethical and as soon as someone lists reasons why THEY don't think it is you type in the same argument again.
And if that doesn't work you resort to name calling.

(Note: You never did really answer my question on Why Poker Tracker?.
You want to have an intellectual discussion (I get that) but why choose Poker Tracker as a subject?

And if you really don't care if someone agrees with you, why call them names? Usually that's reserved for when you WANT someone to see you point AND agree with you.

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Where once again you say 'poker traker is bringing (this is a new tense, it's already happening examples?) .... to it's certain demise.

You said absolutely nothing new, and didn't even respond to the post you replied to. That's not intellectual discussion.

But carry on. I'm leave now.

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you are debating things that have no relevance to my discussion. you are going on your own tangent, and you are missing my main point. that is why i keep repeating myself, in the hopes that you may understand my arguement. but it seems that i have been repeating myself to no avail, as you still have no clue what i am arguing and what my main point is. so until you discuss the topic and not your own tangent, im going to repeat myself to you.

[MNpoker]

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Poker sites provide for handhistories through e-mail upon request. You'll get the e-mail 1 hour after your request. You receive your seat number with your ID, the other Players are just named seat 1-10. You then can import the hands and study your game. Easy, isn't it?

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That would be fine with me. So get some sites to do it, I'm not the one you need to convince.

Except can I have them saved directly to my hardrive instead? The email thing is a pain and inevitably leads to errors.

[ShakeZula06]

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I don't know if most 2p2ers agree. I don't base my opinons on what the group thinks, I base them MY DEFINITION of logic.

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and this where the problem lays. certain players will continue to find the 'next big program' to give them the edge, even if its the slightest edge. and thus, players will continue to use different programs that are altering the game of poker and since no one has the same definition of ethics or the same logic, what i may consider to be unethical and unfair you fine completely fair and ethical. so when that new program comes out that can make judgements on what a player holds based on statistical evidence of player profiling that IS allowed by party, many people in this thread would get the program ASAP. because, as you said, it is not a matter of ethics, as definitions are subjective, but what is allowed by the site and what is beneficial to oneself. THIS is the future of online poker.

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See your using a slippery slope arguement. For one, you could not create a program that can find through stats exactly what an opponent holds. Do to Random distribution, stats not based on extensive data mining are not that reliable. A players VPIP over 40 hands is not solid eough to conclude his true VPIP, let alone the hand he holds in a particular situation. See: mike Caros Concept of Loose Wiring, which states that the same player, in the same exact situtation (same position, cards, opponents, chip stack, stakes, mood, everything) can and will make different actions in some situations. That is undetectable from HUD stats. You are not playing a robot (and if your playing WinHoldem, then good for you, the average player is +EV against it).

As for the program you are describing, it can not exist, unless your playing against a bot. People will not play a set system postflop and those that follow hand charts for preflop play rarely play exactly as the chart is.

There are many people on this forum that believe HUDs are usless, as it doesn't give you that helpful of stats. While I disagree, it is not that big of a boost.

So what if more software comes out. It's coevoultion, competetion, free market capilatism, take your pick. If I believe a program that PP deems legal and I don't agree with it (such as say they allowed hacking a computer to see your cards) I would leave the site. however comparing that to HUDs with very incomplete general info over a short span of time is not a computer telling you exactly what the correct move is.

[BaHorst]

I CONCUR!