Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[betadecay]

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What is PA HUD? I thought the PA stood for "Player Assisted" as in giving advice on how to play the hand. Or does it stand for "Poker Ace" as in a particular brand of HUD?




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PA hud is a brand. Poker ACE HUD. It will retrieve mucked hands at showdown so you don't have to look it up yourself after every single hand. It will also display PT stats on the table. That is all it does.

[ShakeZula06]

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Yea, really......I agree with the fact that the poker sites makes the rules. But rules and ethics aren't one in the same. The point is that this whole ethics debate is just a red herring. Ethical behavior, especially on a topic as shakey as GAMBLING, is totally subjective. Bots are illegal under T&C, PT is not. Thats the only thing that matters.

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Why is gambling a shaky topic? And why do you think ethics are subjective here and not elsewhere? IMO, they are not. You can apply ethics to gambling the same way you can apply them to the Olympics, relationships, and pretty much anything else.

It's unethical to cheat. It doesn't matter if you're taking bribes as judge for Olympic figure skating, or if you're using Bots. It's cheating, and it's unethical.

I don't see why you view gambling in such a negative moral light that you consider the ethics involved to be subjective. Were you okay with ZeeJustin's actions?

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Umm, are you saying ethics are not subjective? If that's the case why do we all believe different things? You are way over your head.

[ShakeZula06]

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I think that this topic is a massive over reaction! These pieces of software which tell the player the odds on them winning are (which are very unethical) do give an advantage, however, Poker Sites are cracking down on this and anyone who they can tell is using this software will soon face a ban. We all need to do our part and report any strange activity, if we don't report it, we WILL be stuck with it

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Are you talking about PT?

[ShakeZula06]

Playa Hata, will you respond to my post? I've noticed you have returned and are posting from yesterday, and you've commented in about every section of this thread with the exception of this one.

[Gregatron]

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What is PA HUD? I thought the PA stood for "Player Assisted" as in giving advice on how to play the hand. Or does it stand for "Poker Ace" as in a particular brand of HUD?




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PA hud is a brand. Poker ACE HUD. It will retrieve mucked hands at showdown so you don't have to look it up yourself after every single hand. It will also display PT stats on the table. That is all it does.

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Just to clarify, HUDS are NOT Artifical intelligence, like some less that bright posters have claimed.

[ShakeZula06]

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Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books.

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Nope. Feed your brain all you want. Don't get help while you're playing.

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80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

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Really? AIM is available to all. So are simultaneous cable and DSL connections. So are everyone's hole cards and IP addresses....if you are smart enough to get past the encryption. I'm not, so I guess that makes you a better poker player than I am.

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The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business.

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Really? Does the site give you the hand history with an attached message that says "Here, this is yours. Whatever you do with it is your own business."? I think it's quite the contrary.

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I tried getting this answer from the OP and couldn't. Why is having more info in a legal manner unethical just because it's during the game?

Simulatanius internet connnections and using aol is illegal per T&C. Thus it is unethical. As others have said, your using a straw man.

[ShakeZula06]

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Quick questions for those who say "it's available to everyone"....

A few months ago, there was a well known site (I forgot the name) that was looking to implement HUDs into their software for all players to have. What do you think of that? Yay or Nay? I would assume Nay.

Now, IF that were implemented on the site, what percentage of total players (not 2+2ers) do you think would be like "wow, I've never seen this before!"? 20%? 80%? My guess would be it's closer to the 80%. Just goes to show how widely known this stuff really isn't. (like that grammar?)

OK, final question....

If you answered Nay to the first question, it's probably because you want to hide these software tools from the 80% in the 2nd question. Do you honestly think we should be more entitled to these programs than they are because we clicked a few download links, ran some imports, or shared databases and they didn't? Before answering the last question, think very carefully about our entitlement and what we did to "earn" the right to these tools (clicking download links, running imports, sharing DBs....none of which are even REMOTELY POKER RELATED).

That's what's unfair IMO. I'm anxious to hear some replies from this thread's vocal software proponents.

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Poker players make money off other players mistakes. Since fish would make less mistakes with a HUD I probably wouldn't play there. Do I think it's wrong? Absolutely not, why would it?

What's your point? So what if 80% plus have never heard of it before. Their ignorance is not our fault.

Just because I'd like my players to have less knowledge of how to correctly play poker doesn't make me unethical. I'd like to hear a response as to why you think thats so.

[obsidian]

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From Party's T&C:

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7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs that are designed to enable artificial intelligence ('AI Software') to play on our Platforms such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs. To view frequently asked questions about this topic, go to our Unfair Advantage Policy.

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They basically say nothing about programs that a free, not-sold, or privately created. Could be a problem. Or, consider this problem:

As a community, 2+2 has access to many "public" programs (free or not) that many outside of our community do not. Do we have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Do we share?

Likewise, there are other communities in Slovenia, Hong Kong, and other (less known) places who also have "public" programs (free or not) that members outside of their community do not. Do they have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Should they? What if these programs are better than ours? Would that give them an "unfair advantage" because they didn't share or advertize?

I don't buy into this "available to everyone" theory. We do our best to acquire what we can and then conceal it once acquired. It's selfishly conditional and most definitely not what the sites want.

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First off, PT and PA HUD are not anywhere close to AI software. I've programmed AI software in the past an neither of these programs use any algorithms even close to what would be consider AI. They are dumb programs who simply collect data. In the world of AI programming that's a very tiny part of the work.

Second, since when has the 2+2 community or the writers of programs we use "hidden" them from others? You know how I found out about these programs? I read some 2+2 book, checked out the forums, and learned about them from members willing to recommend the software to anyone who posted. I didn't have to have X number of posts. I just asked. I would hardly call that concealing. Hell, anyone who asks me for help with poker I generally point them to these forums.

[PairTheBoard]

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From Party's T&C:

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7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs that are designed to enable artificial intelligence ('AI Software') to play on our Platforms such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs. To view frequently asked questions about this topic, go to our Unfair Advantage Policy.

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They basically say nothing about programs that a free, not-sold, or privately created. Could be a problem. Or, consider this problem:

As a community, 2+2 has access to many "public" programs (free or not) that many outside of our community do not. Do we have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Do we share?

Likewise, there are other communities in Slovenia, Hong Kong, and other (less known) places who also have "public" programs (free or not) that members outside of their community do not. Do they have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Should they? What if these programs are better than ours? Would that give them an "unfair advantage" because they didn't share or advertize?

I don't buy into this "available to everyone" theory. We do our best to acquire what we can and then conceal it once acquired. It's selfishly conditional and most definitely not what the sites want.

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First off, PT and PA HUD are not anywhere close to AI software. I've programmed AI software in the past an neither of these programs use any algorithms even close to what would be consider AI. They are dumb programs who simply collect data. In the world of AI programming that's a very tiny part of the work.

Second, since when has the 2+2 community or the writers of programs we use "hidden" them from others? You know how I found out about these programs? I read some 2+2 book, checked out the forums, and learned about them from members willing to recommend the software to anyone who posted. I didn't have to have X number of posts. I just asked. I would hardly call that concealing. Hell, anyone who asks me for help with poker I generally point them to these forums.

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Opponent Profiling?


PairTheBoard

[Our House]

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Just to clarify, HUDS are NOT Artifical intelligence, like some less that bright posters have claimed.

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Did I deliver any personal blows to you? All I did was voice my opinion about HUDs. Maybe they would be considered more like AI if instead of displaying stats, a voice came out and said "this guy's 60/14/1.8" when it was his turn to act.

I apologize for being "less than bright" in your eyes (FWIW, my posts are rather intelligent if you feel like looking at some), and I find it hard to believe you could bear a green name while resorting to attacks on my intelligence....especially when I have said NOTHING to you.