Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[PlayaHata]

you are strung up on the poker tracker part. i am discussing how the usage of poker tracker is bringing internet poker to its certain demise (the bigger picture)

[betadecay]

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Quick questions for those who say "it's available to everyone"....

A few months ago, there was a well known site (I forgot the name) that was looking to implement HUDs into their software for all players to have. What do you think of that? Yay or Nay? I would assume Nay.

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This wouldn't really matter much. Bad players will make no sense of stats. Good players will. Bad players will not become good players because they see their VPIP is 40. The only thing that might happen here, is that a few bad players might become interested in using the stats and maybe investigate on how to improve their game. I run into people on party all the time talking about HUD stats. And they'll be 25/0/0s. The value in HUDS is very little and mostly comes from helping to multi table.

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Now, IF that were implemented on the site, what percentage of total players (not 2+2ers) do you think would be like "wow, I've never seen this before!"? 20%? 80%? My guess would be it's closer to the 80%. Just goes to show how widely known this stuff really isn't. (like that grammar?)

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It will be alot. Just like 80percent of players would be surprised if party had a link to 2p2 on their lobby, or if party sent out SSHE every time someone signed up. Just because the majority of players are not serious and will not investigate or study the game, does not mean that serious players are unethical for doing so.

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Do you honestly think we should be more entitled to these programs than they are because we clicked a few download links, ran some imports, or shared databases and they didn't?

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Of course I do. Why should a casual player be entitled to a level field agaisnt a player that put in time and effort to learn strategy, investigate and acquire the tools that are allowed by the sites, study, practice, and tweak his game. This is a competitive game we are playing. There are going to be people that take it seriously. And there will be people who don't care at all other then to gamble and have fun. You can't say it is unfair to the casual player. The casual player makes the decision to play in this environment.

[betadecay]

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it's against T&C for a friend (human intelligence) at your house to help you make decisions while playing. Why would that not apply to artificial intelligence?

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?!?!?!??! A hud has no intelligence. It displays data. There is no calculations or or analyzing going on in a hud. As a matter of fact it displays data that any player can put into player notes if they were inclined. A hud is a note function.

[JOEL_]

The average player thinks he is playing against other people.Other people playing poker like he is doing himself.Looking at his cards and making his decisions like everyone else(he thinks).

[MNpoker]

How is this:

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you are strung up on the poker tracker part. i am discussing how the usage of poker tracker is bringing internet poker to its certain demise (the bigger picture)

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In any way a response to this:
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I enjoy debates and intellectual arguements. Is that a problem? I dont care if people agree with me, I actually prefer to have people disagree with me and have an INTELLECTUAL arguement.

i guess my question is, why cant i?

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You can, obviously you are, no one has said you can't or shouldn't. I'm curious WHY?

You've said that you want to have an intellectual discussion, most people would want to have these discussions on something they care about.

You also keep writing the same thing over and over and over. I think anyone who is reading this thread sees your point. But are you are considering theirs, how is that an intellectual discussion?
Do you agree that something you may find unetichal others may find ethical? Or is that not possible for 2 rationale people?

You hate PT and think it's unethical and as soon as someone lists reasons why THEY don't think it is you type in the same argument again.
And if that doesn't work you resort to name calling.

(Note: You never did really answer my question on Why Poker Tracker?.
You want to have an intellectual discussion (I get that) but why choose Poker Tracker as a subject?

And if you really don't care if someone agrees with you, why call them names? Usually that's reserved for when you WANT someone to see you point AND agree with you.

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Where once again you say 'poker traker is bringing (this is a new tense, it's already happening examples?) .... to it's certain demise.

You said absolutely nothing new, and didn't even respond to the post you replied to. That's not intellectual discussion.

But carry on. I'm leave now.

[PokerAce]

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As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair.

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Party Poker contacted me about setting up an advertising arrangement. I now have a deal with them where someone can sign up using my bonus code and get a free copy of PA Hud. Why would Party Poker contact me if they didn't allow my software to be used on their site?

In addition to that, PokerStars has specifically listed my software on their website as being okay to use with their site.

Basically, it's up to the poker sites to determine what is and what is not an unfair advantage. Is using software like PT and PA Hud an advantage? Absolutely. Why else would people use them? Is it an unfair advantage? So far, the poker sites have been saying "no".

You still need to be a good player to use this software effectively. How many hundreds of thousands of poker books have been sold? How many of those who have read them are actually winning players now? I would guess a very small percentage. Do you think everyone who has purchased and uses PT and PA Hud are winning players? It's highly unlikely.

I think you are over estimating the value of the software and how much it actually helps. Buying PT and PA Hud isn't going to make a losing player into a winner. In some cases, where the player doesn't know how to use the information properly, it can actually hurt the player. Those players who take the time to actually learn how to use the software effectively will gain a slight edge but it's not going to turn a .5 BB/100 winner into a 3 BB/100 winner. The edge gained is much smaller than that.

[O Doyle Rules]

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As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker contacted me about setting up an advertising arrangement. I now have a deal with them where someone can sign up using my bonus code and get a free copy of PA Hud. Why would Party Poker contact me if they didn't allow my software to be used on their site?

In addition to that, PokerStars has specifically listed my software on their website as being okay to use with their site.

Basically, it's up to the poker sites to determine what is and what is not an unfair advantage. Is using software like PT and PA Hud an advantage? Absolutely. Why else would people use them? Is it an unfair advantage? So far, the poker sites have been saying "no".

You still need to be a good player to use this software effectively. How many hundreds of thousands of poker books have been sold? How many of those who have read them are actually winning players now? I would guess a very small percentage. Do you think everyone who has purchased and uses PT and PA Hud are winning players? It's highly unlikely.

I think you are over estimating the value of the software and how much it actually helps. Buying PT and PA Hud isn't going to make a losing player into a winner. In some cases, where the player doesn't know how to use the information properly, it can actually hurt the player. Those players who take the time to actually learn how to use the software effectively will gain a slight edge but it's not going to turn a .5 BB/100 winner into a 3 BB/100 winner. The edge gained is much smaller than that.

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IMHO, the bigger issue is not about the edge gained by any one individual player, but the perception that it creates about online poker in general.

The potential for more and more recreational players to start playing online could be severely limited if programs like yours were portrayed negatively in the media:

Play online poker? Find out why you will lose your money to online poker pros that use special software programs designed to improve their odds!

Full story at eleven o'clock!

Besides the perception, it does provide the ability for decent multi-tabling players given the additional edge HUDs provide (be it a small one) to effectively play 4, 8 or more tables as a result of this type of software, which further degrades the quality of the games at a much faster pace. Which do poker sites care more about? The quality of the games or how many seats are filled?

I don't think it is totally crazy to think that third party software programs could potentially be a large as threat, if not even greater, to the online poker industry, as any legislature efforts ever could be.

[PairTheBoard]

What is PA HUD? I thought the PA stood for "Player Assisted" as in giving advice on how to play the hand. Or does it stand for "Poker Ace" as in a particular brand of HUD?

As far as the future of Poker goes, it's the Decision Assisted HUDs that are crossing the line - especially as BOT type programs get better and better. Even if the Online Poker sites could keep BOTs out, if they allow such DAHUD's you will eventually see the sites swamped not with computer-geek players, but a slew of hired help at minimum wage.

PairTheBoard

[betadecay]

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As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker contacted me about setting up an advertising arrangement. I now have a deal with them where someone can sign up using my bonus code and get a free copy of PA Hud. Why would Party Poker contact me if they didn't allow my software to be used on their site?

In addition to that, PokerStars has specifically listed my software on their website as being okay to use with their site.

Basically, it's up to the poker sites to determine what is and what is not an unfair advantage. Is using software like PT and PA Hud an advantage? Absolutely. Why else would people use them? Is it an unfair advantage? So far, the poker sites have been saying "no".

You still need to be a good player to use this software effectively. How many hundreds of thousands of poker books have been sold? How many of those who have read them are actually winning players now? I would guess a very small percentage. Do you think everyone who has purchased and uses PT and PA Hud are winning players? It's highly unlikely.

I think you are over estimating the value of the software and how much it actually helps. Buying PT and PA Hud isn't going to make a losing player into a winner. In some cases, where the player doesn't know how to use the information properly, it can actually hurt the player. Those players who take the time to actually learn how to use the software effectively will gain a slight edge but it's not going to turn a .5 BB/100 winner into a 3 BB/100 winner. The edge gained is much smaller than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the bigger issue is not about the edge gained by any one individual player, but the perception that it creates about online poker in general.

The potential for more and more recreational players to start playing online could be severely limited if programs like yours were portrayed negatively in the media:

Play online poker? Find out why you will lose your money to online poker pros that use special software programs designed to improve their odds!

Full story at eleven o'clock!

Besides the perception, it does provide the ability for decent multi-tabling players given the additional edge HUDs provide (be it a small one) to effectively play 4, 8 or more tables as a result of this type of software, which further degrades the quality of the games at a much faster pace. Which do poker sites care more about? The quality of the games or how many seats are filled?

I don't think it is totally crazy to think that third party software programs could potentially be a large as threat, if not even greater, to the online poker industry, as any legislature efforts ever could be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good players can multitable without huds. Huds just make it easier. the same way we can keep notes on everyone's stats. Huds just make that easier. There is no reason for 20/20 to report that pros are cheating casual players by using a hud.

[O Doyle Rules]

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As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker contacted me about setting up an advertising arrangement. I now have a deal with them where someone can sign up using my bonus code and get a free copy of PA Hud. Why would Party Poker contact me if they didn't allow my software to be used on their site?

In addition to that, PokerStars has specifically listed my software on their website as being okay to use with their site.

Basically, it's up to the poker sites to determine what is and what is not an unfair advantage. Is using software like PT and PA Hud an advantage? Absolutely. Why else would people use them? Is it an unfair advantage? So far, the poker sites have been saying "no".

You still need to be a good player to use this software effectively. How many hundreds of thousands of poker books have been sold? How many of those who have read them are actually winning players now? I would guess a very small percentage. Do you think everyone who has purchased and uses PT and PA Hud are winning players? It's highly unlikely.

I think you are over estimating the value of the software and how much it actually helps. Buying PT and PA Hud isn't going to make a losing player into a winner. In some cases, where the player doesn't know how to use the information properly, it can actually hurt the player. Those players who take the time to actually learn how to use the software effectively will gain a slight edge but it's not going to turn a .5 BB/100 winner into a 3 BB/100 winner. The edge gained is much smaller than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the bigger issue is not about the edge gained by any one individual player, but the perception that it creates about online poker in general.

The potential for more and more recreational players to start playing online could be severely limited if programs like yours were portrayed negatively in the media:

Play online poker? Find out why you will lose your money to online poker pros that use special software programs designed to improve their odds!

Full story at eleven o'clock!

Besides the perception, it does provide the ability for decent multi-tabling players given the additional edge HUDs provide (be it a small one) to effectively play 4, 8 or more tables as a result of this type of software, which further degrades the quality of the games at a much faster pace. Which do poker sites care more about? The quality of the games or how many seats are filled?

I don't think it is totally crazy to think that third party software programs could potentially be a large as threat, if not even greater, to the online poker industry, as any legislature efforts ever could be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good players can multitable without huds. Huds just make it easier. the same way we can keep notes on everyone's stats. Huds just make that easier. There is no reason for 20/20 to report that pros are cheating casual players by using a hud.

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Might not be a reason in your opinion, but I think there are plenty of reasons why a show like 20/20 would report it that way.

TV ratings come to mind pretty quickly.