Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[Our House]

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If all these tools were provided by the site itself then that's another story.

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Bah. You beat me to it.

[bulldawgblue]

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If all these tools were provided by the site itself then that's another story.

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Bah. You beat me to it.

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Unrealistic.

[4_2_it]

Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books. 80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business. If PT weren't available, I probably would have set up my own database......

[PlayaHata]

to all the advocates of PT, i have a question.

i have seen many posts about players who discuss PT in table chatrooms. they are chastised for shedding light to the fish. if PT is ethical and 'available' to all players, then why is a player who discusses PT and informs new players about such programs so quickly reprimanded?

is it maybe because it gives the PT user an advantage over the nonuser? isnt this unfair?

if it isnt, please discuss why it is fair for one player to withhold information about a program that, when used correctly, adds benefit to ones playing ability.

[PlayaHata]

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Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books. 80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business. If PT weren't available, I probably would have set up my own database......

[/ QUOTE ]

42,
there is a very big difference between a poker strategy book and PT and PA hud. i respect you as a poster, im pretty sure you know this, but you are stretching the arguement by comparing books to a computer program.

[MNpoker]

Just curious why are you so fired up on this issue?

You made the OP and said your piece, fair enough (even though I think we have plenty of PT hatin' threads, but whatever).
So now why do you continue to feel the need to argue this into the ground?
Why do you care? You have already stated you are going to play at B&M's only from here on out, and that you enjoy it more.
Again why do you care what goes on online?

I would expect someone who is NOT quitting online to be a little more pasionate about it. But you have said Internet Poker never had a chance, EVER.

I don't get why you are arguing the point. Why do you care if people agree with you?

[PlayaHata]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why are you so fired up on this issue?

You made the OP and said your piece, fair enough (even though I think we have plenty of PT hatin' threads, but whatever).
So now why do you continue to feel the need to argue this into the ground?
Why do you care? You have already stated you are going to play at B&M's only from here on out, and that you enjoy it more.
Again why do you care what goes on online?

I would expect someone who is NOT quitting online to be a little more pasionate about it. But you have said Internet Poker never had a chance, EVER.

I don't get why you are arguing the point. Why do you care if people agree with you?

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I enjoy debates and intellectual arguements. Is that a problem? I dont care if people agree with me, I actually prefer to have people disagree with me and have an INTELLECTUAL arguement.

i guess my question is, why cant i?

[4_2_it]

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Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books. 80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business. If PT weren't available, I probably would have set up my own database......

[/ QUOTE ]

42,
there is a very big difference between a poker strategy book and PT and PA hud. i respect you as a poster, im pretty sure you know this, but you are stretching the argument by comparing books to a computer program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Both are readily available via a 10 second Google search. I hear your argument and respect what you are saying. I actually agree with you on data mining hands that you are not dealt in.

I think what this boils down to is player motivation. Just like in B&Ms, a recreational player isn't interested in improving his game or playing TAG. He is there to gamble it up. After he loses his poker budget he moves on to craps or blackjack.

Any serious player will take the time to improve his game. That includes reading books, forums and searching the 'net for tools that might help him.

Again, I really see nothing unethical (and my real life job is ethics-related) about using information that you obtained from being involved directly in a hand.

Are you saying that hand histories should not be made available to anyone? Then I could see the logic behind your opposition to PT.

[Our House]

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Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Feed your brain all you want. Don't get help while you're playing.

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80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

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Really? AIM is available to all. So are simultaneous cable and DSL connections. So are everyone's hole cards and IP addresses....if you are smart enough to get past the encryption. I'm not, so I guess that makes you a better poker player than I am.

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The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business.

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Really? Does the site give you the hand history with an attached message that says "Here, this is yours. Whatever you do with it is your own business."? I think it's quite the contrary.

[PlayaHata]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our house,

So using your logic regarding HUDs, I must be cheating because I spend time posting on a poker website and reading poker books. 80% of the players on line don't that either. Using something that is available to all is not cheating or unethical.

The sites provide EVERYONE their own hand histories. What people choose to do with that information is their own business. If PT weren't available, I probably would have set up my own database......

[/ QUOTE ]

42,
there is a very big difference between a poker strategy book and PT and PA hud. i respect you as a poster, im pretty sure you know this, but you are stretching the argument by comparing books to a computer program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Both are readily available via a 10 second Google search. I hear your argument and respect what you are saying. I actually agree with you on data mining hands that you are not dealt in.

I think what this boils down to is player motivation. Just like in B&Ms, a recreational player isn't interested in improving his game or playing TAG. He is there to gamble it up. After he loses his poker budget he moves on to craps or blackjack.

Any serious player will take the time to improve his game. That includes reading books, forums and searching the 'net for tools that might help him.

Again, I really see nothing unethical (and my real life job is ethics-related) about using information that you obtained from being involved directly in a hand.

Are you saying that hand histories should not be made available to anyone? Then I could see the logic behind your opposition to PT.

[/ QUOTE ]

42,
my OP, although written poorly, was to argue that the influx of players using PT and normalizing poker programs is going to lead to a poker "software arms race". PT is unethical IMHO because it allows users to view serious computations that couldnt be done in the short period of time that a player is given inbetween hands. I do not use PT and so i may have confused PT with PA HUD, which is the display mod? which i have a problem with. If one uses PT for tax purposes or to find in leeks in ones game, then i have no problem with this. It is using the program WHILE playing that i have a problem with. The information that is avaible to a player using HUD DOES factor into how a player plays. The fact that HUD can show if your opp. is a calling station or a rock can greatly vary how you play against them. I should have clarified in my OP this, but I was writing more with emotion then with my brain. and for that i apologize.

so my main arguement is that using programs DURING play is unethical. because it does alter ones decision making process, so some extant, during a hand. and it is the influx of these programs that will lead to the certain demise of the validity and security of online play, as players out there will continue to create programs to add to their arsenal to create a greater edge over the average player. i hope this makes sense, if not i will try to clarify.