Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[bulldawgblue]

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Yea, really......I agree with the fact that the poker sites makes the rules. But rules and ethics aren't one in the same. The point is that this whole ethics debate is just a red herring. Ethical behavior, especially on a topic as shakey as GAMBLING, is totally subjective. Bots are illegal under T&C, PT is not. Thats the only thing that matters.

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Why is gambling a shaky topic? And why do you think ethics are subjective here and not elsewhere? IMO, they are not. You can apply ethics to gambling the same way you can apply them to the Olympics, relationships, and pretty much anything else.

It's unethical to cheat. It doesn't matter if you're taking bribes as judge for Olympic figure skating, or if you're using Bots. It's cheating, and it's unethical.

I don't see why you view gambling in such a negative moral light that you consider the ethics involved to be subjective. Were you okay with ZeeJustin's actions?

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You are completelty trivializing the philosphy of ethics. I never said that I thought gambling was immoral. Its doesn't matter if I was ok with ZJ's actions or not, because Party wasn't. You have little understanding of what you're acctually talking about.

[Stagemusic]

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I personally have a problem with software aids that run and assist you with your actual decisions during the play of the game (at the table). If PT MUST lead to that, I see where the OP is coming from. If there is a way to prevent PT data from being used in manner that causes "unfair advantages", then I have no problems with PT use and access.


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NH Sir.

This thread went sideways from the first post simply because the OP mentioned PT and DataMining as the MAIN reasons that Online Poker is doomed. In that statement he is wrong. But that really doesn't change the fact that PT and PAHud have definitely changed the landscape of online poker and not for the better. We are talking about BILLIONS of dollars being wagered on these sites every year. The advantage of PT and the other software programs is absolutely enormous. If I can sit at 1,2,3,or 6 tables and have a display that tells me how many times player X Y and Z go VIP on each table is my EV better or worse than if I don't have that information? Of course it's better. There is no way in hell that anyone would ever convince me that these 18-22 year old online phenoms that are making thousands every month would be doing as well without these tools. I am not commenting on whether they are ethical or not, it simply doesn't matter. The tools are allowed for the most part on the sites.

The OP is correct in one way however. Online poker is doomed and it was doomed from the start. There is absolutely no way that the massive volume of dollars in the games right now can be sustained. There simply is not that much discretionary income available to keep the games at their current level. The money will dry up eventually. It has to. Anyone who has taken a basic economics course (and stayed awake during it) can tell you that. I still play online some and enjoy the game. However, I found that I like the interaction of the live game much more. That was just a personal decision and had nothing to do with Bots, PT, Collusion, or Multi-accounting.

I don't think the games will crash tomorrow and that the sites will be a barren wasteland next week with 3 or 4 players on the site. However, I do know that the trend is certainly cycling down. I will say that if I were a 20 year old who made the decision to make online poker my lifes work I would be very frugal with the money that I am making and would be very very interested in alternative ways to either invest or make money in the future.

[PlayaHata]

[quoteIf the poker sites were to ban the software, I would stop using it. One of the primary reasons I started using it in the first place was so that other players wouldn't have an advantage over me (which goes back to OP's original point about a "software arms race").

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FINALLY!!! Someone with reading comprehension understood my post. My problem with PT is that is opens the floodgates to numerous programs that players are using/abusing to further give themselves an advantage. Just because party says that using PT is ok doesnt mean that it isnt unfair. What if party were to say that using poker prophecy, or another program that is currently banned, is now legal... how many of you would go out and buy this? What about a new program that was mentioned in a previous post, about seeing mucked cards in real time in a SnG? I think alot of people on 2+2 would use these programs with little to no thought about the recourses it has on the game of online poker. Continuing the use of external computer programs to give one an advantage over the other is going to cause a 'software arms race' as jb9 has cleverly named it.

[PlayaHata]

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In my opinion, Party Poker should either stop supplying Hand Histories altogether - except per email request, or they should simply Buy Up the Poker Tracker Company and supply Poker Tracker Services to ALL their customers gratis.


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agreed

[PlayaHata]

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My response commented on the poster's logic, not his opinion. But speaking of opinions, contrary to the hippy pc logic you seem to espouse, not everyone's opinion is equally valid, esp if it is based on flawed logic.

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Flawed logic?

Like conflating someone's actual statements (e.g., about software) with a different concept (e.g., books)? Or assuming from statements someone made that they were actually proposing an argument and then proceeding to attack the argument you imagined into existence using logical fallacies that you try to pass off as sound logic...

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JB9 thank you so much for your support. but it is unneccessary. No matter what you say this ignorant twit will continue to argue his ideas, and is too stubborn to hear otherwise. I just ignore the posts that have no logical arguement and only aim to mock and taunt. Thanks again for defending me, but it is unneccessary. I just dont read past the first sentance.

I really liked your posts by the way, great arguments and well written.

[JOEL_]

I have to agree with you PlayaHata,

If all these tools were provided by the site itself then that's another story.

[PlayaHata]

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

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exactly. Major leak in OP's argument

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i dont think you understand fully my real arguement.

[PlayaHata]

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I've spoken my mind about this before, but here's my take:

There would be no problem with PT as far as I'm concerned if it didn't lead to the use of other programs that can function from the information gathered (HUDs, etc.). PT as a stand-alone program is great for keeping records, self analysis, and collusion detection among other things. Nothing wrong with that because you don't use it while you play.

I personally have a problem with software aids that run and assist you with your actual decisions during the play of the game (at the table). If PT MUST lead to that, I see where the OP is coming from. If there is a way to prevent PT data from being used in manner that causes "unfair advantages", then I have no problems with PT use and access.

As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair. Nevertheless, the T&Cs don't specifically say these programs are accepted. The same goes for datamining. Party has takes steps to prevent/limit datamining, but their T&C doesn't specifically mention it (I'm pretty sure I know why). Which brings us to:

Software programs NOT mentioned in the T&C that WE don't know about.

NOW, it gets messy. As Moo mentioned earlier in this thread, there are programs floating around that we aren't aware of. This essentially makes us just like the fish that aren't aware of the PT/PA combo. These programs aren't specifically mentioned in the T&C either, so I guess that makes them OK, right? Wrong. The T&C doesn't say you aren't allowed to develop your own programs either. Where do we draw the line? Should poker become a "survival of the fittest" battle between software engineers and their users? I don't think any of us want to see that, especially if we're better than the competition because of our brains alone.

Think about it. If you were the best online poker player in the world when no tools existed, did your edge go up or down with the addition of tools? It's not hard to see what has happened and what can happen. The game should be played straight up as the sites intended it. Again, this does not mean PT is unethical IMO, but the things that come of it...that run while you play...ARE.

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AMAZING POST.
Your comments on where we draw the line is my REAL arguement. Im glad a few readers out there understood this. Most everyone got caught up on the part where i bash PT that they forget what my OP was really aimed at.

again, amazing post.

[4_2_it]

Wait. It's cheating when I save and use the hand histories from hands that I playedin? Please explain yourself.

FWIW - I hope they start trying to put bots on the NL tables. They will get slaughtered by anyone who is paying attention..............

[Our House]

Quick questions for those who say "it's available to everyone"....

A few months ago, there was a well known site (I forgot the name) that was looking to implement HUDs into their software for all players to have. What do you think of that? Yay or Nay? I would assume Nay.

Now, IF that were implemented on the site, what percentage of total players (not 2+2ers) do you think would be like "wow, I've never seen this before!"? 20%? 80%? My guess would be it's closer to the 80%. Just goes to show how widely known this stuff really isn't. (like that grammar?)

OK, final question....

If you answered Nay to the first question, it's probably because you want to hide these software tools from the 80% in the 2nd question. Do you honestly think we should be more entitled to these programs than they are because we clicked a few download links, ran some imports, or shared databases and they didn't? Before answering the last question, think very carefully about our entitlement and what we did to "earn" the right to these tools (clicking download links, running imports, sharing DBs....none of which are even REMOTELY POKER RELATED).

That's what's unfair IMO. I'm anxious to hear some replies from this thread's vocal software proponents.