Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[octop]

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B&M poker is different than online Poker. Different rules, different game. If u like one over the other ,good for u, but don't call it cheating. That is why some people can win at BM but not OL and vice versa.

College baseball permits alluminum bats,MLB does not.

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True, but this does not mean that someone shouldnt argue against the use of aluminum bats (or PT) The 2 games are different jsut as B&M and Live poker are, but if something is bad for the game you can't just say well its different but thats ok.
As someone who played college baseball, I can tell you that aluminum bats are terrible for baseball - infact one can make the argument that they so drastically alter the game, it really shouldnt even be classified as baseball.
In college football only one foot must be inbounds when you catch a pass, while in the NFL they both must be in. This is an example of a change that while different does not drastically impact the game.
All differences are not the same. If something is bad for the game, then it is in our best interests to change it.

[pokerdan1201]

I think that this topic is a massive over reaction! These pieces of software which tell the player the odds on them winning are (which are very unethical) do give an advantage, however, Poker Sites are cracking down on this and anyone who they can tell is using this software will soon face a ban. We all need to do our part and report any strange activity, if we don't report it, we WILL be stuck with it

[Reef]

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

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exactly. Major leak in OP's argument

[Our House]

I've spoken my mind about this before, but here's my take:

There would be no problem with PT as far as I'm concerned if it didn't lead to the use of other programs that can function from the information gathered (HUDs, etc.). PT as a stand-alone program is great for keeping records, self analysis, and collusion detection among other things. Nothing wrong with that because you don't use it while you play.

I personally have a problem with software aids that run and assist you with your actual decisions during the play of the game (at the table). If PT MUST lead to that, I see where the OP is coming from. If there is a way to prevent PT data from being used in manner that causes "unfair advantages", then I have no problems with PT use and access.

As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair. Nevertheless, the T&Cs don't specifically say these programs are accepted. The same goes for datamining. Party has takes steps to prevent/limit datamining, but their T&C doesn't specifically mention it (I'm pretty sure I know why). Which brings us to:

Software programs NOT mentioned in the T&C that WE don't know about.

NOW, it gets messy. As Moo mentioned earlier in this thread, there are programs floating around that we aren't aware of. This essentially makes us just like the fish that aren't aware of the PT/PA combo. These programs aren't specifically mentioned in the T&C either, so I guess that makes them OK, right? Wrong. The T&C doesn't say you aren't allowed to develop your own programs either. Where do we draw the line? Should poker become a "survival of the fittest" battle between software engineers and their users? I don't think any of us want to see that, especially if we're better than the competition because of our brains alone.

Think about it. If you were the best online poker player in the world when no tools existed, did your edge go up or down with the addition of tools? It's not hard to see what has happened and what can happen. The game should be played straight up as the sites intended it. Again, this does not mean PT is unethical IMO, but the things that come of it...that run while you play...ARE.

[betadecay]

NNice post.

I want to add that Party has made a broad generalization for these rogue programs. If they have certain functions they are illegal. It has stated it's stance on datamining. Datamining is also illegal. I think party has drawn the line at huds. Gametime and PA are allowed. They basically are an extension of their player note function.

[Back In Black]

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

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You absolutely would NOT be kicked out of a casino for this. Many players bring in notepads and make notes on what other players did (and their tendencies, etc.)

PT absolutely does a GREAT job of note taking and organizing. But it does not collect any data that you would not have access to in a B&M. (I will give you that you might get kicked out of a B&M for asking to see every players cards every hand)

Data-mining is completely different. I'll even agree that there is a grey area here. I happen to think it stops at Data-mining (you should not get HH's for hands you didn't play) and others will put that line somewhere else.

A on-line casino can have 'local' rules, just like a B&M can. If there is demand for a site that does not produce any HH's or show other players hole cards, I would guess one will eventually pop up. Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive).

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Perfect...except for bold... Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive). [

[Back In Black]

Players that don't know about poker strategy resources [books or web info.] are in much worse shape than the difference between PT or no PT. Does that mean we should ban poker learning resources to help the clueless?

[Our House]

From Party's T&C:

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7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs that are designed to enable artificial intelligence ('AI Software') to play on our Platforms such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs. To view frequently asked questions about this topic, go to our Unfair Advantage Policy.

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From Party's Unfair Advantage Policy:

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How do you distinguish between Forbidden and Permitted categories of programs? Isn’t it true that many of these programs are for training—e.g. improving gaming skills?

Programs that give a player an advantage over others are not something we wish to forbid. Advantage is not the issue— an unfair advantage is and we see that as deception. And so is invasion of privacy and data theft.

To begin with, our basis for distinction is not whether a particular program gives the user an advantage over non-using players, nor is it based on the particular content.

To us, the key indicia that define the class of programs we seek to eliminate from use on the Site are: deception and breach of our customers’ privacy.

Nevertheless, what our customers want will always remain the primary influence on what we do about this. So for instance, we have no doubt that anything that compromises the integrity of the game or that erodes our customers’ confidence about whether they will be unfairly disadvantaged while playing on our site, must be eliminated. And it’s there that we direct our efforts. But our customers will always have the last word about what it is they want to play and against whom. So if our customers want to play against BOTS, then we will seriously consider this request. But again, the bottom line is that we will do whatever it takes to ensure that our customers are not deceived and that their privacy is not violated.

Instead, what we’re talking about here are programs which: (i) advertise as a key feature that the buyer/user will gain an unfair advantage (quite often they even use the word “cheat”) over the other players—in other words, they promise to help a player to cheat; or (ii) their use by the buyer/user is intended to remain concealed from the other players and from the “operator” (i.e., the online gaming room); or (iii) steal legally protected material (e.g., player identities) that violate International Copyright Laws as well as Privacy Laws.

Granted some of the companies who make programs that we deem “forbidden” (i.e., that satisfies the criteria above) claim that the purpose of their programs is not to assist a player to cheat an online game but rather as a training aid (even though they might concede that an unscrupulous user could indeed use it for the purpose of cheating). Think for a moment about this claim. What other plausible reason is there to make and sell programs promised to give you an unfair advantage and at the same time remain concealed from the other players and the online room, and actually take the place of a player at the online table but in a way undetectable by anyone else. That aside, emphasizing one attribute to advertise their programs (“to cheat”) but disavowing that attribute entirely in every other instance is dishonest, to say the least, and certainly does nothing to help the image of our industry.

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They basically say nothing about programs that a free, not-sold, or privately created. Could be a problem. Or, consider this problem:

As a community, 2+2 has access to many "public" programs (free or not) that many outside of our community do not. Do we have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Do we share?

Likewise, there are other communities in Slovenia, Hong Kong, and other (less known) places who also have "public" programs (free or not) that members outside of their community do not. Do they have a moral obligation to share these programs with the rest of the world? Should they? What if these programs are better than ours? Would that give them an "unfair advantage" because they didn't share or advertize?

I don't buy into this "available to everyone" theory. We do our best to acquire what we can and then conceal it once acquired. It's selfishly conditional and most definitely not what the sites want.

[Our House]

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

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exactly. Major leak in OP's argument

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It's not a leak. Read my above post.

How would a non-2+2er know to come to this community and get programs that only we know about? In the same respect, how would you know to go to other communitites or places in the world and get programs that only they know about? Call it "public", but rest assured, it's not.

[chezlaw]

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

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exactly. Major leak in OP's argument

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Yes, it's such a wierd arguement if it were true then reading books or this forum or thinking about the game are unethical.

What's really unethical is making use of above average intelligence. That's not available to everyone.

chez